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Luka Doncic

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especially with him actually doing a pretty good job of reigning in his TO's.

Yeah, 2:1 assist to turnover ratio ir pretty damn good, especially for a rookie PG still adjusting to the NBA. Steph Curry also has a 2:1 ratio. And honestly, a guy like Trae Young couldn't have come to the NBA at a better time... All this high paced three-point shooting oriented basketball, now also with more freedom of movement. He can become a star. Whereas in the 90s, pretty sure he would've been a bust.
 
Amazingly, with as good as Luka has been, it's possible Atlanta will have almost washed that trade if they make a good selection (plus starter) with that Dallas pick.

I would prefer Luka but Young has looked good for a player that is still a bit raw and can get better. His efficiency numbers aren't bad and he has yet to shoot to his ability from 3. If he's even 36-37% from 3......he's possibly a 46%-ish guy from the field. Young is drawing fouls at a much higher rate than expected and has shown the ability to actually get to the rim and finish (63%).

I still like Luka better (and would do the Dallas trade 10 out of 10 times) but has the possibility to be one of the rare cases where a trade might work out for both teams.

Young has looked good? Guess we'll have to disagree on that one.

I see 3 really good games (2 against the Cavs) and a bunch of stinkers.
 
Young has looked good? Guess we'll have to disagree on that one.

I see 3 really good games (2 against the Cavs) and a bunch of stinkers.

Agreed. Simply too low of a sample size for us to come to any sort of meaningful conclusions given the wide range of play.

He could be an all-star, but he could be Brandon Jennings. Way too early to know.
 
Also important to recognize that Trae's numbers are being inflated somewhat by the Hawks' incredibly fast pace, faster than any team in nearly 3 decades. On a typical team (and in a typical season) his averages would be "only" around 17 and 7 instead of 19 and 8.
 
Young has looked good? Guess we'll have to disagree on that one.

I see 3 really good games (2 against the Cavs) and a bunch of stinkers.

Unevenness is the hallmark of NBA rookie PG play. Young plays a really reckless style of basketball. I mean that as a compliment in most regards. He's still figuring out what he can and can't do at this level....but while going through that adjustment, is producing at a really high level for a rookie PG.

Also, your barometer for a good game must be really, really, really high. He's had at least 4 quality games by any measure.....and then 3-4 where he didn't shoot well but still had 2-4 rebounds and 5-9 assists. He needs to prove he can defend at a passable level but his offense has just been surprising to me.

Young is far from a finished product but his vision and finishing have been much better than expected. He's likely a player that will be more volatile than average but seeing him produce 20+ points and 9-10 assists in 30 minutes of playing time, even with some bad games, is pretty eye opening. His per 36 minute line of 22 / 9 / 4 is insane for a rookie PG......and to this point, he hasn't shot that well from 3 yet, which he should see an uptick on.
 
Unevenness is the hallmark of NBA rookie PG play. Young plays a really reckless style of basketball. I mean that as a compliment in most regards. He's still figuring out what he can and can't do at this level....but while going through that adjustment, is producing at a really high level for a rookie PG.

Also, your barometer for a good game must be really, really, really high. He's had at least 4 quality games by any measure.....and then 3-4 where he didn't shoot well but still had 2-4 rebounds and 5-9 assists. He needs to prove he can defend at a passable level but his offense has just been surprising to me.

Young is far from a finished product but his vision and finishing have been much better than expected. He's likely a player that will be more volatile than average but seeing him produce 20+ points and 9-10 assists in 30 minutes of playing time, even with some bad games, is pretty eye opening. His per 36 minute line of 22 / 9 / 4 is insane for a rookie PG......and to this point, he hasn't shot that well from 3 yet, which he should see an uptick on.

I just haven't been impressed by him at all. His offense has actually been much worse than advertised IMO
 
Also important to recognize that Trae's numbers are being inflated somewhat by the Hawks' incredibly fast pace, faster than any team in nearly 3 decades. On a typical team (and in a typical season) his averages would be "only" around 17 and 7 instead of 19 and 8.

Yes, pace is inflating them for sure but his per 36 would still be stellar for a true rookie PG.

Defense is the anchor for him no doubt but I wasn't trying to drive the TY bandwagon, just pointing out that through 10%-ish of his rookie season, he is showing offensive ability that I think many doubted he would against bigger, strong, more athletic players.

I don't know what he ultimately is 2, 3, 4 years from now but he's much better than I expected him to be and I thought he would be a decent NBA player.

Anyway, don't want to hijack the Luka thread.....just thought both guys in the trade have played well.
 
Yes, pace is inflating them for sure but his per 36 would still be stellar for a true rookie PG.

Defense is the anchor for him no doubt but I wasn't trying to drive the TY bandwagon, just pointing out that through 10%-ish of his rookie season, he is showing offensive ability that I think many doubted he would against bigger, strong, more athletic players.

I don't know what he ultimately is 2, 3, 4 years from now but he's much better than I expected him to be and I thought he would be a decent NBA player.

Anyway, don't want to hijack the Luka thread.....just thought both guys in the trade have played well.
per 36 doesn't adjust for pace
 
I just haven't been impressed by him at all. His offense has actually been much worse than advertised IMO

I think you don't have a lot of historical context, in regards to what he is doing his first 10 games. Young is at 19.1 PPG and 7.9 AST....

Only 2 guards, in NBA history, have averaged 18 and 7 their rookie years:

Allen Iverson
Damon Stoudemire

If everyone wants to fixate on pace:

Only 11 players, in NBA history, have averaged 15 and 7 their rookie years, at ANY position:

Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
Chris Paul
Ben Simons
Phil Ford
Damon Stoudemire
Allen Iverson
Steph Marbury
Isiah Thomas
John Wall
Ernie DiGregorio

Out of that list, only 4 shot better than Young's 43.8% from the field.....which can certainly improve.

Again, I don't want to be the Trae Young apologist around here but offensively speaking, he is on a truly historic pace, as it pertains to production.
 
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Yes, pace is inflating them for sure but his per 36 would still be stellar for a true rookie PG.

Defense is the anchor for him no doubt but I wasn't trying to drive the TY bandwagon, just pointing out that through 10%-ish of his rookie season, he is showing offensive ability that I think many doubted he would against bigger, strong, more athletic players.

I don't know what he ultimately is 2, 3, 4 years from now but he's much better than I expected him to be and I thought he would be a decent NBA player.

Anyway, don't want to hijack the Luka thread.....just thought both guys in the trade have played well.

Yeah, to be clear, I'm just nit-picking at the difference between Trae and past elite ~20 year old PGs like Kyrie. If you take their numbers straight up, Trae's actually scoring more than Kyrie did as a rookie and beats him by a mile in assists. Per 100 possessions though, it's more even, with Kyrie holding a substantial edge in scoring but Trae still a bit ahead in assists. Either way, he's in nearly uncharted waters and if he keeps up his current level of production this will undoubtedly go down as one of the best rookie seasons of all time for a point guard.
 
I think you don't have a lot of historical context, in regards to what he is doing his first 10 games. Young is at 19.1 PPG and 7.9 AST....

Only 2 guards, in NBA history, have averaged 18 and 7 their rookie years:

Allen Iverson
Damon Stoudemire

If everyone wants to fixate on pace:

Only 11 players, in NBA history, have averaged 15 and 7 their rookie years, at ANY position:

Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
Chris Paul
Ben Simons
Phil Ford
Damon Stoudemire
Allen Iverson
Steph Marbury
Isiah Thomas
John Wall
Ernie DiGregorio

Out of that list, only 4 shot better than Young's 43.8% from the field.....which can certainly improve.

Again, I don't want to be the Trae Young apologist around here but offensively speaking, he is on a truly historic pace, as it pertains to production.

I know all about the historical context, but I also know the current landscape of the league.

Factoring that in with Young's situation being with the Hawks, and having his run of the show in blowout after blowout, I'm not really impressed. His finishing has been much better than it was in college, I'll give him that, but everything else has just been a hair worse than I expected.
 
I know all about the historical context, but I also know the current landscape of the league..

So how do you explain so few players doing it?

Since AI in 97, only 3 guys have eclipsed those thresholds.

It's fine if you didn't realize what those benchmarks are / were. I'm not the stat police. Just pointing out the pace Young is on, numbers wise, is crazy for a rookie.....regardless of what you think about him.
 
So how do you explain so few players doing it?

Since AI in 97, only 3 guys have eclipsed those thresholds.

It's fine if you didn't realize what those benchmarks are / were. I'm not the stat police. Just pointing out the pace Young is on, numbers wise, is crazy for a rookie.....regardless of what you think about him.
I'm perfectly aware that his numbers are impressive, but I don't think he has been.

As far as explaining why other haven't done this, much lower pace, much less offense league-wide, and less opportunity for rookies to run the show.
 
I'm perfectly aware that his numbers are impressive, but I don't think he has been.

As far as explaining why other haven't done this, much lower pace, much less offense league-wide, and less opportunity for rookies to run the show.

Oscar Robertson- 43 MPG
Magic Johnson- 36 MPG
Chris Paul- 36 MPG
Ben Simons- 34 MPG
Phil Ford- 35 MPG
Damon Stoudemire- 41 MPG
Allen Iverson - 41 MPG
Steph Marbury- 35 MPG
Isiah Thomas- 34 MPG
John Wall- 38 MPG
Ernie DiGregorio- 36 MPG

With his minutes threshold hovering near 30, I think your pace / movement / opportunity assessment is way off base. A lot of highly drafted rookies have played 30 minutes a game, very few have got off to the start he has.
 
Oscar Robertson- 43 MPG
Magic Johnson- 36 MPG
Chris Paul- 36 MPG
Ben Simons- 34 MPG
Phil Ford- 35 MPG
Damon Stoudemire- 41 MPG
Allen Iverson - 41 MPG
Steph Marbury- 35 MPG
Isiah Thomas- 34 MPG
John Wall- 38 MPG
Ernie DiGregorio- 36 MPG

With his minutes threshold hovering near 30, I think your pace / movement / opportunity assessment is way off base. A lot of highly drafted rookies have played 30 minutes a game, very few have got off to the start he has.

And all those guys achieved your statistical thresholds, right? That doesn't disprove my point.

My assessment isn't off, it's just different than your's.
 

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