The Transgender Issue

[Wrathe]

Also, why does everyone keep acting like the conservative/Christian base started this w/ NC's legislature? Wasn't NC's action's a response to the liberal/Satanic laws passed in Charlotte? - Article citing alleged timeline

It's like the little kid in the backseat type of stuff, "He started it! I didn't do nothin' honest!"

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Again, it can be less safe, especially depending on the state, for a trans woman to go to the men's room. And it's an unnecessary embarrassment and hardship on trans people to force this on them. I do not see how allowing trans people to use their restroom of choice impedes on the privacy or safety of non-trans people. It literally only affects the behavior of trans people.

I think you are completely missing the nature of the objection.

First, the Charlotte ordinance at issue does not state that you should use the restroom that most closely matches your appearance, which is the argument/scenario you are addressing. It makes professed self-identity the only measuring stick. So the real problem isn't actual transpeople. The real problem are the pervs who can use the law to hangout in bathrooms frequented by members of the opposite sex. And that has actually been happening. Dudes hang out in women's bathrooms, and there's nothing that can really be done about it.

Second, if we're talking just bathrooms (not changing rooms, etc.) then trans people who really look like members of the opposite sex could always use their preferred bathrooms anyway even without the ordinance. Because who'd really know? Someone who looks like a woman walks into a stall, does their business, and leaves. Nobody would know.

Problems only emerge if someone doesn't really look like a member of the opposite sex, in which case your concerns about staring/embarrassment are inevitable anyway.

 

[-Akronite-]

I think you are completely missing the nature of the objection.

I wouldn't say so. For as many reasonable-sounding arguments one can make on the matter, there are just as many bigots that simply want to keep trans people down. They don't want to acknowledge them as a legitimate group and find their lives to be an act against God. We JUST got gay marriage legalized in this country because of the influence of Christianity in politics. We can't pretend they play no role here.

First, the Charlotte ordinance at issue does not state that you should use the restroom that most closely matches your appearance, which is the argument/scenario you are addressing. It makes professed self-identity the only measuring stick. So the real problem isn't actual transpeople. The real problem are the pervs who can use the law to hangout in bathrooms frequented by members of the opposite sex. And that has actually been happening. Dudes hang out in women's bathrooms, and there's nothing that can really be done about it.

1) Do you have a citation on this apparent epidemic?

2) You're saying that transpeople aren't the problem but that's who's getting punished. Now they can't go to their own bathroom without being post-op and having their birth certificate changed.

Second, if we're talking just bathrooms (not changing rooms, etc.) then trans people who really look like members of the opposite sex could always use their preferred bathrooms anyway even without the ordinance. Because who'd really know? Someone who looks like a woman walks into a stall, does their business, and leaves. Nobody would know.

Problems only emerge if someone doesn't really look like a member of the opposite sex, in which case your concerns about staring/embarrassment are inevitable anyway.

It really shouldn't matter how much someone "passes." Someone could just be starting their transition, for instance.

 

[CleveRocks]

Keeping Transgenders down.... i am certain that is americas number one priority.... i think tye only objections i have to transgender rights is that 1) I dont want to pay for thier transition, 2) I dont think they should have special rights to the bid process.. Blacks, Latino, Disabled Vets... these absoulutely should get favored status in the bid process, but trans no.. thats my opinion.., Live the way you want.. just not on my dime...

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I wouldn't say so. For as many reasonable-sounding arguments one can make on the matter, there are just as many bigots that simply want to keep trans people down.

So what? An otherwise valid argument in support of an idea isn't invalidated just because someone else supports it with a crappy argument.

1) Do you have a citation on this apparent epidemic?

Nobody keeps stats on it, but articles have been posted in this thread recounting such incidents. Whether you choose to believe that or not is immaterial -- I know that others have read such reports, and I'm satisfied with making the point and letting others determine if it is valid factually.

2) You're saying that transpeople aren't the problem but that's who's getting punished. Now they can't go to their own bathroom without being post-op and having their birth certificate changed.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

It really shouldn't matter how much someone "passes." Someone could just be starting their transition, for instance.

Yes, it should. Because we are going to recognize that sufficient privacy rights exist to justify gender-separate bathrooms in the first place, then "passing" is part of what makes other people comfortable. You seem to place an unassailable priority on a transperson feeling comfortable about who else is using "their" bathroom, and no value at all on whether others are comfortable with a person who is of the opposite gender using theirs.

 

[-Akronite-]

So what? An otherwise valid argument in support of an idea isn't invalidated just because someone else supports it with a crappy argument.

I don't think the arguments are valid, they are reasonable-sounding but in the end it's still discrimination. I'm just stating that we can't just ignore what's really pushing this shit.

Nobody keeps stats on it, but articles have been posted in this thread recounting such incidents. Whether you choose to believe that or not is immaterial -- I know that others have read such reports, and I'm satisfied with making the point and letting others determine if it is valid factually.

Okay.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Then what are you saying because you just said that... "So the real problem isn't actual transpeople."

Yes, it should. Because we are going to recognize that sufficient privacy rights exist to justify gender-separate bathrooms in the first place, then "passing" is part of what makes other people comfortable. You seem to place an unassailable priority on a transperson feeling comfortable about who else is using "their" bathroom, and no value at all on whether others are comfortable with a person who is of the opposite gender using theirs.

Nope. That's a very subjective measure and some people have such masculine/feminine features that they may never pass in everyone's eyes.

Other people being uncomfortable doesn't bother me if the trans person isn't actually doing anything wrong. If they are minding their own business and not verbally or physically assaulting anyone, then any discomfort is you have is YOUR problem.

I'm not giving priority to trans people, I'm asking for equality. You are not asked to use the bathroom of a gender you don't identify with. I would not ask that of trans people either.

Oh hell you know what I'm even fine giving them priority in the feelings department. Because we fucking should.

Someone sees a trans person in their bathroom that doesn't pass well: "That's weird to me and I'm uncomfortable."

A trans person using the opposite bathroom: "I'm being judged by everyone here and fear for my safety."

So yeah, even though I feel it's about ending discrimination, I somehow don't have qualms about this accusation of putting trans feelings first. And again, it isn't just about feelings it's about recognizing the lives and rights of trans people. These bills are a pushback against the trans acceptance movement first and foremost.

 

[Man Called X]

Tossing out big red X's Akronite?

Disagree with my psychic's opinion on the past life of my newborn daughter?

Fucking trannies. I legitimately had no problem with them up to this point. Just thought they are there own special breed of crazy and let it go at that.

But the fact that this debate has turned into me being accosted while I'm grocery shopping because I called my 7 day old daughter a girl?

Nope, fuck trannies, fuck non binary, fuck all the girls that dress like 12 year old boys and want me to refer to them as it.

Seriously, fuck the whole lot of them. Hope they all die in car accidents.

 

[David.]

Tossing out big red X's Akronite?

Disagree with my psychic's opinion on the past life of my newborn daughter?

Fucking trannies. I legitimately had no problem with them up to this point. Just thought they are there own special breed of crazy and let it go at that.

But the fact that this debate has turned into me being accosted while I'm grocery shopping because I called my 7 day old daughter a girl?

Nope, fuck trannies, fuck non binary, fuck all the girls that dress like 12 year old boys and want me to refer to them as it.

Seriously, fuck the whole lot of them. Hope they all die in car accidents.

Who's the better drivers, men trans to women or women trans to men?

 

[David.]

Who's the better drivers, men trans to women or women trans to men?

I want an actual response.

 

[-Akronite-]

Tossing out big red X's Akronite?

You know what? You're right. It's unfair of me to hit disagree without presenting a direct response. To be honest your last line is something I vehemently disagree with:

Anything else is just bullshit rhetoric to make people feel better about themselves.

I think this is a bullshit, short-sighted, selfish, and stupid opinion. It shows a complete lack of empathy for a group of people who have struggled with marginalization for all of history. We've had maybe a half-decade of recognizing that maybe terms like tranny are offensive and perhaps we shouldn't make jokes where the punchline is that someone is transgender.

Disagree with my psychic's opinion on the past life of my newborn daughter?

Wait, what? Actually, hey you're still right. I hit disagree so of course it would come off as a blanket disapproval when actually I relate to the story about your daughter and don't agree with shaming you for calling her such.

Fucking trannies.

Oh... Uh, wait-

I legitimately had no problem with them up to this point. Just thought they are there own special breed of crazy and let it go at that.

Hmm, uh, well... You- Um-

But the fact that this debate has turned into me being accosted while I'm grocery shopping because I called my 7 day old daughter a girl?

Gotta say it feels like you're taking one incident and-

Nope, fuck trannies, fuck non binary, fuck all the girls that dress like 12 year old boys and want me to refer to them as it.

Really feel you're taking this a step too far-

Seriously, fuck the whole lot of them. Hope they all die in car accidents.

Maybe I'll stick to red X's.



PS: It's hilarious how transgender people deal with ridicule, attacks, and dismissiveness their entire lives as they struggle with their identity but also get criticized for worrying about their feelings too much. Meanwhile you get asked to change your pronouns or have one incident at a grocery store and it's all FUCK EM I DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE FOR THIS I'M OUT. Unless this was satire in which case solid.

 

[Man Called X]

You know what? You're right. It's unfair of me to hit disagree without presenting a direct response. To be honest your last line is something I vehemently disagree with:



I think this is a bullshit, short-sighted, selfish, and stupid opinion. It shows a complete lack of empathy for a group of people who have struggled with marginalization for all of history. We've had maybe a half-decade of recognizing that maybe terms like tranny are offensive and perhaps we shouldn't make jokes where the punchline is that someone is transgender.



Wait, what? Actually, hey you're still right. I hit disagree so of course it would come off as a blanket disapproval when actually I relate to the story about your daughter and don't agree with shaming you for calling her such.



Oh... Uh, wait-



Hmm, uh, well... You- Um-



Gotta say it feels like you're taking one incident and-



Really feel you're taking this a step too far-



Maybe I'll stick to red X's.



PS: It's hilarious how transgender people deal with ridicule, attacks, and dismissiveness their entire lives as they struggle with their identity but also get criticized for worrying about their feelings too much. Meanwhile you get asked to change your pronouns or have one incident at a grocery store and it's all FUCK EM I DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE FOR THIS I'M OUT. Unless this was satire in which case solid.

It's taking a random situation and turning it into a bigger deal than it needs to be. Look, I don't care if you identify as a man, or identify as a woman. I don't care what fucking bathroom you use. But until humanity adapts into allowing the human body to shift genders fluidily, I don't truly care what someone wants to call themselves.

Sucks you don't feel comfortable in your own skin. I've got mental health issues too. But I'll be damned if we're just going to create a shitton of labels to appease a few random mental health issues.

"I'm a non binary, asexual panda bear." This kind of shit is where I draw the line.

Be your own special breed of crazy, but don't expect me to accept your special breed of crazy is how reality should be no more than I expect you to think that my special breed of crazy is how reality should be.

I want a lawless society where I could shoot a person in the face for looking at me the wrong way. Anything else is unacceptable. My rights and my feelings have meaning and I shouldn't be ostracized for my beliefs.

So, welcome to Fallout motherfucker. Better have your bottlecaps ready.

 

[David.]

These issues really are going to have an counterproductive effect. Trans people are inadvertently being turned into adversaries in attempt to gain political power.

Change is organic, not forced. Empathy has nothing to do with a solution being right.

X nailed virtue signaling.

 

[-Akronite-]

Change is organic, not forced.

Where the fuck did you come up with that?

 

[David.]

Where the fuck did you come up with that?

You want to force people to agree with you?

Why don't i force you to agree with me that you're wrong?

^natural instinct is hostility and rejection.


In this rhetorical example, you would not be happy because I'm a mack truck. So not only do you naturally get aggressive push back, youre setting precedent for being forced to change your beliefs if you dont have the power your opposition does.

 

[-Akronite-]

You want to force people to agree with you?

Why don't i force you to agree with me that you're wrong?

^natural instinct is hostility and rejection.


In this rhetorical example, you would not be happy because I'm a mack truck. So not only do you naturally get aggressive push back, youre setting precedent for being forced to change your beliefs if you dont have the power your opposition does.

You say this but it's not true in the real world.

The gay movement was criticized for YEARS for being too in your face and forceful. But it's worked. The Civil Rights movement was similar. Was the Civil War organic change?

You don't make change by compromising from the get-go and staying quiet.

EDIT: It takes time to change someone's mind, but you can't go person to person easing your way toward acceptance. You move forward and let those people catch up when they're ready.