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czvo said:
So is your argument that his game is solely predicated on fouls and he's not an elite scorer and, maybe, the best point guard in the game?
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No

My argument is that we both agreed that whistles are more scarce for him in the playoffs

He also hasn't had much success in the playoffs

Look Harden is a great player (best point guard in the game is lolzy, Steph is clearly a better player), but how many consecutive years do we have to see the same song and dance in the playoffs before we stop hyping him up every regular season?

A large part of his game is drawing fouls. It's not all of his game. It's a large part. And that isn't conductive to playoff basketball so what's the point?
 
The Wizard of Moz said:
No

My argument is that we both agreed that whistles are more scarce for him in the playoffs

He also hasn't had much success in the playoffs

Look Harden is a great player (best point guard in the game is lolzy, Steph is clearly a better player), but how many consecutive years do we have to see the same song and dance in the playoffs before we stop hyping him up every regular season?

A large part of his game is drawing fouls. It's not all of his game. It's a large part. And that isn't conductive to playoff basketball so what's the point?
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Well, then I don't really think we're debating anything ha. He hasn't been as good in the playoffs, and he's in the discussion for best pg in the game (I didn't say for sure, I said maybe). His vision and shotmaking are elite.

I really don't think he's any different than most guys though in the sense that almost every player doesn't shoot it as well in the playoffs. The intensity ramps up, the competition is higher. He's not unique there.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year because this will be the first year in Houston he has another elite teammate with him. I don't count Dwight because he's Dwight, and he can't take any of the shot creating duties off Harden's hands.
 
czvo said:
Well, then I don't really think we're debating anything ha. He hasn't been as good in the playoffs, and he's in the discussion for best pg in the game (I didn't say for sure, I said maybe). His vision and shotmaking are elite.

I really don't think he's any different than most guys though in the sense that almost every player doesn't shoot it as well in the playoffs. The intensity ramps up, the competition is higher. He's not unique there.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year because this will be the first year in Houston he has another elite teammate with him. I don't count Dwight because he's Dwight, and he can't take any of the shot creating duties off Harden's hands.
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Maybe it's just more noticeable for Harden because of the steeper drop off from regular season to postseason since he puts up video game numbers every regular season?

Idk. I just think it's always a risky proposition when your game has a higher reliance on foul calls. It's why even though I was frustrated LeBron and Kyrie (in my opinion) got shafted on calls it still made me feel better knowing they can both drop 40 in the same playoff game without a parade to the line. They can transcend shitty officiating
 
The Wizard of Moz said:
Maybe it's just more noticeable for Harden because of the steeper drop off from regular season to postseason since he puts up video game numbers every regular season?

Idk. I just think it's always a risky proposition when your game has a higher reliance on foul calls. It's why even though I was frustrated LeBron and Kyrie (in my opinion) got shafted on calls it still made me feel better knowing they can both drop 40 in the same playoff game without a parade to the line. They can transcend shitty officiating
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Want to see something funny? Since he went to Houston, Harden has averaged the following fta per year:

10.2
9.1
10.2
10.2
10.9

In the playoffs that same time frame:

11
8.3
10.5
9
10.5

Not a huge difference there, and, in any event, should be comforting considering the Cavs now employ IT.
 
czvo said:
Want to see something funny? Since he went to Houston, Harden has averaged the following fta per year:

10.2
9.1
10.2
10.2
10.9

In the playoffs that same time frame:

11
8.3
10.5
9
10.5

Not a huge difference there, and, in any event, should be comforting considering the Cavs now employ IT.
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I would point out that those numbers don't really tell the whole picture.

If you go back to the 2016-17 season, Harden was "earning" a .575 free throw rate; which, is frankly total bullshit. Over the course of the playoffs, that dropped down to a still very absurdly high .528! So there was fall off, but it was still a very higher number.

However, if you drill-down into the data, you see how the refs are not calling these free throws consistently and across the entirety of games.

If we look at a competitive series, and during the most competitive timespans of those series (4Q), over the 5 games the Rockets played the Spurs, James Harden's "skill" at drawing free throws went from .575 over 82 games in the regular season, to .381 when his team needed him most. In 3 of those 5 4th quarters, Harden failed to draw a single free throw on 8 out of 19 total attempts; two of those 3 games ending in losses for the Rockets.

So, if you ask me, I don't think the Cavs (of all teams) should be thinking that Isaiah Thomas is going to be drawing free throws in close 4th quarter situations when it matters most.
 
gourimoko said:
I would point out that those numbers don't really tell the whole picture.

If you go back to the 2016-17 season, Harden was "earning" a .575 free throw rate; which, is frankly total bullshit. Over the course of the playoffs, that dropped down to a still very absurdly high .528! So there was fall off, but it was still a very higher number.

However, if you drill-down into the data, you see how the refs are not calling these free throws consistently and across the entirety of games.

If we look at a competitive series, and during the most competitive timespans of those series (4Q), over the 5 games the Rockets played the Spurs, James Harden's "skill" at drawing free throws went from .575 over 82 games in the regular season, to .381 when his team needed him most. In 3 of those 5 4th quarters, Harden failed to draw a single free throw on 8 out of 19 total attempts; two of those 3 games ending in losses for the Rockets.

So, if you ask me, I don't think the Cavs (of all teams) should be thinking that Isaiah Thomas is going to be drawing free throws in close 4th quarter situations when it matters most.
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Thanks for the info. I'd be interested in seeing the free throw rate for "clutch time" situations in the regular season relative to the same time frame in the postseason.
 
I really kinda like these black and green Boston jerseys.
 
Of course Kyrie is getting 7 first half free throws thanks to his new Celtics jersey. Just continuing from the garbage calls he got vs Dallas , I suppose.

This league makes me sick sometimes. I guarantee IT will shoot less FT's by a fair margin this year.
 
If Kyrie starts getting to the line a lot, he'll be one of the more dynamic scorers in the league. The only thing that's always been holding him back in that regard.

He's been getting to the line more lately. Last 5 games, 7.6 free throws a game, and he's averaging 29.5 ppg.

That was always my fear with Kyrie. If he gets to the line more, his game offensively will go to an entire new level.

It's just a small sample size though.
 
InBoobieWeTrust said:
Of course Kyrie is getting 7 first half free throws thanks to his new Celtics jersey. Just continuing from the garbage calls he got vs Dallas , I suppose.

This league makes me sick sometimes. I guarantee IT will shoot less FT's by a fair margin this year.
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maybe hes just better at it now than before.
 
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