Jimmy Butler Safari

[ACisKING]

I just don't understand the almost-hyperbolic fear of going into mini-rebuild mode around here. We should be committed to 3 things: a) developing our young talent b) accruing assets c) clearing cap space. Trading for Butler undermines all of that. And for what? So we can proudly shake our fist at LeBron and say "see, we can get to the playoffs without you!"?

There's some people around who think that acquiring Butler means we're automatically going to get Kyrie back. So we have what, an older version of our former Big 3 with an injury-prone, malcontent Butler in place of LeBron? Who seriously wants that? Kyrie's comments about Lue and the ugly parting just a year ago are also not positive indicators he'd even want to come back here.

We need to be looking ahead to a new era. I wasn't giddy about the Love extension but I could embrace it as a "mentor/loyalty" signing. Gilbert is just going to torpedo the Cavs' future in epic Ahab fashion if he goes after Butler.

Very well said. Thirty year old Butler on a one year deal does not fit the timetable of the Cavs to rebuild. He is not good enough to be the best player on a championship team either. And even in the dream scenario where you get Kyrie to return next summer the team still wouldn’t be good enough. I get that the Cavs would have three stars in that scenario but the dropoff from LeBron to Butler is pretty steep. And I just don’t see the appeal of pairing Kyrie and Love together again. But let’s be really clear - even if you believe in that big three you are assuming that Kyrie will choose to leave a Celtics team that is set to be the Warriors of the East for years to come. I wouldn’t throw away the franchise’s best assets for the mere hope of that happening.

 

[TitleTown]

I was just making a joke

I was too. Thus the wink emoji.

Do you have an actual counter argument?

 

[TitleTown]

Thirty year old Butler on a one year deal does not fit the timetable of the Cavs to rebuild.

Your timeline assumption would only be a valid premise if the Cavs were doing a traditional rebuild. The Kevin Love signing suggests that the Cavs are keeping their options open for other rebuilding approaches.

In other words, we don't know what Dan and Koby have in mind for a rebuild timeline. Butler could very well fit their plans.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I've seen reports that Dan was talking "privately" with Glen Taylor (couldn't have been too damn private if somebody saw it) but nothing that indicates they were specifically discussing a Butler trade, much less if it's serious or not.

 

[ACisKING]

Your timeline assumption would only be a valid premise if the Cavs were doing a traditional rebuild. The Kevin Love signing suggests that the Cavs are keeping their options open for other rebuilding approaches.

In other words, we don't know what Dan and Koby have in mind for a rebuild timeline. Butler could very well fit their plans.

That may well be the case but I would argue that would be a mistake. I see no realistic scenario in which a team spearheaded by Butler and Love has any legitimate shot to win a title. And chasing contention would mean going for more win now players at the expense of draft picks and young players. So going down that road would be just delaying the full rebuild that the Cavs need to actually compete for a title again one day.

 

[TitleTown]

So going down that road would be just delaying the full rebuild that the Cavs need to actually compete for a title again one day.

This so-called accepted wisdom is horseshit.

There are many ways to compete for a title, and doing a "full rebuild" has no better a track record than any other.

I think a full rebuild is just as risky for a small market team as the treadmill approach. Both require a fair amount of luck to move into true contender status. I'd prefer to watch a near playoff team than watch a full rebuild for the next 5 years.

 

[gourimoko]

This so-called accepted wisdom is horseshit.

There are many ways to compete for a title, and doing a "full rebuild" has no better a track record than any other.

I think a full rebuild is just as risky for a small market team as the treadmill approach. Both require a fair amount of luck to move into true contender status. I'd prefer to watch a near playoff team than watch a full rebuild for the next 5 years.

I agree 100%... People continue to act as though the Cavs have a good chance at actually successfully rebuilding in some definitive period of of time. Like "setting the rebuild" back, means .. what .. exactly? 2 years out of how many? 5 years from now, 10?

It truly is a ridiculous argument when you look around the league and see the results of development-driven rebuilds. Moreover, with the changes to the draft lottery, getting a #1 overall pick is much less likely with the bottom 4 teams all splitting odds.

That's why I contend the Cavs should go for it given the opportunity they have in front of them, since there is nothing whatsoever guaranteed about rebuilding around Collin Sexton and hoping for the best in the draft.

 

[-Akronite-]

I was too. Thus the wink emoji.

Do you have an actual counter argument?

I don't feel like I need an argument, as I can't prove the negative that Kyrie wouldn't return. But he's in a good situation now and left us a year ago, I'd be surprised if this was the route he went. I'd welcome him back though, easily.

For the record, I agree that we don't need to do a "full re-build" and could try to be a good team now with a move like this. We tanked hard last time LeBron left and we didn't actually get our shit together until he returned. I see the argument for the full rebuild in that the whole NBA is fucked for a while with this GSW situation.

 

[TitleTown]

I see the argument for the full rebuild in that the whole NBA is fucked for a while with this GSW situation.

Is it though? We're already hearing lots of grumblings of Durant, Green, and potentially Thompson wanting to spread their wings and prove themselves elsewhere.

This year could be the last title for GSW's dynasty. These sorts of things always seem like they're unstoppable...until they aren't. Look at Shaq and Kobe. They could have won 6 straight...until they didn't. It's hard to dominate for a long time because humans get bored, jelous, or prideful and decide to change teams. It's inevitable.

 

[-Akronite-]

Is it though? We're already hearing lots of grumblings of Durant, Green, and potentially Thompson wanting to spread their wings and prove themselves elsewhere.

This year could be the last title for GSW's dynasty. These sorts of things always seem like they're unstoppable...until they aren't. Look at Shaq and Kobe. They could have won 6 straight...until they didn't. It's hard to dominate for a long time because humans get bored, jelous, or prideful and decide to change teams. It's inevitable.

Very good point, but obviously we aren't competing this season with or without Butler, so whatever the plan is, it better be long term. Again, I agree that long term doesn't always mean being pure shit on purpose for years while the fans dissipate and start praying for LeBron round 3.

The fact is that there's no guarantee we can contend for a while regardless, so I'm fine with swinging big at the moment. Winning in 2016 made it harder for me to get worked up.

 

[cavsfever]

Some of the people here who are now saying we need to compete in the playoffs right away didn't seem all that interested in keeping Lebron when he was here...he was the only way for this team to realistically compete. Now that he's gone we need a lot more depth of young talent than we have and also to clean up the payroll. Redoing the team around two guys on the wrong side of 30 who aren't really all that great anyway (with one a rental!) is not the way to do that.

FYI, don't know if anyone posted yet, but Zach Lowe dropped an article entitled "every realistic trade scenario for Jimmy Butler" that didn't mention Cleveland once. (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...de-market-minnesota-timberwolves-jimmy-butler)

 

[Cavsengland]

Kyrie hasn't spoken to butler in 2 years (his words) and isn't leaving the celtics.


http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/24756416/kyrie-irving-talks-boston-celtics

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/kyrie-irving-finds-comfort-peace-being-celtic

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/kyrie-irving-wants-jersey-retired-boston-celtics/



His knee is actually healthy for the first time in 3 years, he's the happiest and most comfortable he's ever been in his career, he's playing for a franchise that wants him to stay long term. He also said he dreams that his number 11 jersey will be in the Boston celtics rafters one day.

He's the leader/best player on a team who has a great chance of Winning a championship now and in the future. So again, he isn't going anywhere.

Jimmy butler is great, but he's 29 years old and if trading for him won't lure elite players like kyrie in free agency, than it's not worth it.

Just play Colin sexton a lot of minutes so you can be in the lottery and in contention for Zion Williamson or Rj Barrett young players with elite/all star potential. Draft one of them and then go from there.

 

[benchplayer]

I agree 100%... People continue to act as though the Cavs have a good chance at actually successfully rebuilding in some definitive period of of time. Like "setting the rebuild" back, means .. what .. exactly? 2 years out of how many? 5 years from now, 10?

It truly is a ridiculous argument when you look around the league and see the results of development-driven rebuilds. Moreover, with the changes to the draft lottery, getting a #1 overall pick is much less likely with the bottom 4 teams all splitting odds.

That's why I contend the Cavs should go for it given the opportunity they have in front of them, since there is nothing whatsoever guaranteed about rebuilding around Collin Sexton and hoping for the best in the draft.

Not only that but even IF you get lucky to get the first pick, that does not guarantee a good player, let alone a star. What if its a weak draft class? people need to be careful of what they wish for, because just like there is a mediocrity treadmill, there's a bad draft treadmill, and teams like the kings have been on it for years.

 

[CleveRocks]

The best I would offer is Sexton, Thompson, Korver and a pick bringing back Butler and Dieng.. that means our point guards are Clarkson and Hill, which are still as lame as last year, but gives us a line up which gets to the playoffs this year. And is really one top tier player away from being in the conversation to play GS..

If they want Cedi and Sexton, I think that is too high a price. Cedi, Hood and a pick, perhaps Hill. But I dont think that gets it done unless Hill and Hood are headed to a Third party..

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

just like there is a mediocrity treadmill, there's a bad draft treadmill

There's at least the unknown factor in the draft, whereas you know exactly what you're getting with a guy like Butler. Given our young nucleus, I'd much rather try to build on it rather than cap off their ceiling with an inane "win now" approach where the ceiling is the 2nd round.

I find it ironic that some of Altman's biggest champions are those contending that we should blow our wad on Jimmy Butler; doing so would contradict all of the other moves he's made up till point.