2017-2018 MVP Discussion

[Rich]

Harden is the runaway favorite right now. Everyone else is a significant distance behind him.

But I'd go Curry, Giannis, LeBron, Kyrie.

 

[BigZ]

Harden #1. I wonder if this is another year where Harden gets squeeked out by someone else (Curry 2015, WB 2017).

Cavs are going to have to have an amazing record for Lebron to MVP. Maybe #1 in east, which looks as of now, very unlikely.

 

[blommen]

Harden is the runaway favorite right now. Everyone else is a significant distance behind him.

But I'd go Curry, Giannis, LeBron, Kyrie.

It doesn't bother you how much help Curry has on his team? I know in principle having one or maybe even two other all stars on your team and winning mvp isn't impossible but... I don't know, that team just has so much fucking talent that I seriously wonder how much they would suffer without him.

 

[kookoo]

I think the league owes it to LeBron after stealing at least one from him by giving it to Rose... Should have been 5 in a row.

 

[godfather]

Currently

Harden
Bron
Durant
Curry
Giannis

You're not even hiding your anger for Kyrie.

Not that I blame ya Boobie.

All seriousness, if I was forced to make a list. I am not sure I'd have Kyrie in the top-3.

I think he is probably in the top-5. It's just too early though. I just can't evaluate 20 something games and really know who is seriously the MVP right now.

I think Harden will end up winning the award.

Not sure I like it either.

Because I detest his game, and everything about him.

 

[godfather]

It doesn't bother you how much help Curry has on his team? I know in principle having one or maybe even two other all stars on your team and winning mvp isn't impossible but... I don't know, that team just has so much fucking talent that I seriously wonder how much they would suffer without him.

There might only be two true most valuable players right now.

That's Curry and 'Bron.

I know Curry has a shit load of help, but @priceFTW has done a run down how valuable he really is to them.

Green is too, I get that.

Offensively, they are at a historical great level every year because of him, and yes, they got the talent.

Don't get me wrong. Not suggesting if you place Curry on the Nets, they become the Warriors.

But when Curry sits, their offense isn't remotely the same. Still good, but not the same.

Curry makes them all better offensively, even Durant.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You're not even hiding your anger for Kyrie.

Not that I blame ya Boobie.

All seriousness, if I was forced to make a list. I am not sure I'd have Kyrie in the top-3.

I think he is probably in the top-5. It's just too early though. I just can't evaluate 20 something games and really know who is seriously the MVP right now.

I think Harden will end up winning the award.

Not sure I like it either.

Because I detest his game, and everything about him.

Literally has 0 to do with any “anger” for Kyrie. He’s just not playing anything close to MVP basketball.

There is even a legitimate argument that Al Horford has been the Celtics MVP so far. And I’m not the only one who thinks that. I’ve seen plenty of Boston people saying the same thing.

Kyrie is not having even close to as good of a year as any of the guys I listed.

I just don’t see why anyone would say
23/6 with decent defensive effort is an MVP caliber season.

Even Rose, in probably the biggest MVP travesty season of all time, was 25-8 with slightly better defense

Credit to Kyrie for everything he’s done so far. Clutch. Finally a consistently solid defensive effort. Playing within the team system more than ever...

But he’s not having an MVP caliber season and he doesn’t belong in the MVP race. He would be the worst MVP in the history of the NBA if he won the award as his season stands today.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

If Kyrie is an MVP candidate this year, why wasn’t he one last year?

When he was, you know, better.

 

[Los216]

Literally has 0 to do with any “anger” for Kyrie. He’s just not playing anything close to MVP basketball.

There is even a legitimate argument that Al Horford has been the Celtics MVP so far. And I’m not the only one who thinks that. I’ve seen plenty of Boston people saying the same thing.

Kyrie is not having even close to as good of a year as any of the guys I listed.

I just don’t see why anyone would say
23/6 with decent defensive effort is an MVP caliber season.

Even Rose, in probably the biggest MVP travesty season of all time, was 25-8 with slightly better defense

Credit to Kyrie for everything he’s done so far. Clutch. Finally a consistently solid defensive effort. Playing within the team system more than ever...

But he’s not having an MVP caliber season and he doesn’t belong in the MVP race. He would be the worst MVP in the history of the NBA if he won the award as his season stands today.

Why did Steph win MVP over Harden the first time? Why did Steve Nash win MVP over Shaq and LeBron is consecutive years? Why did Tim Duncan win MVP over Jason Kidd? It's beyond the numbers. The player with the best numbers doesn't win it every year and the best player on the best team doesn't win every year.

Steve Nash won MVP over Kobe in 2006. The same season that LAL only had 7 fewer wins than PHX. The same season Kobe averaged 35 PPG. The same season Kobe scored 81 points!!!! Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, and Kwame Brown were top 5 in mutes played on that team. They took that PHX team with newly crowned b2b MVP Steve Nash to 7 games that year.

 

[MirORich]

Celtics will have to have best record in the league for Kyrie to even get close to the necessary votes. Even though it stands there now, I just don't see that happening. I get that the media looks for a story and certainly the Celtics are playing well enough and have the historical legacy that captures the minds of the media. And certainly, LeBron's orbit matters too. Kyrie winning MVP frames yet another 24/7 news cycle frenzy with LeBron somewhere in the middle of it, this time the story of Kyrie "breaking free of LeBron's gravity" And there's still 60+ games to go. Kyrie can still author the stats that merit the award, but the competition is going to be tough.

I don't think there's a chance LeBron gets it, no matter how efficient his numbers on offense. I think enough of the new age NBA media over the most recent era of basketball prefer to not reward the guys who are the most physically elite guys. They love Steph especially because he represents the opposite to them. System basketball that supports the tenets of advanced stats. They can imagine themselves playing that way at the gym or rec league(which is absurd of course). But none of the typical new NBA media can imagine themselves as a LeBron, who is just such a dominant physical force, so much so that they default to 2007 era LeBron when talking about his actual elite basketball skills. They always give him credit fro the prenatural stuff like his vision and physical dominance and far less credit for his jumper, improved post work, etc. I'm speaking more of the blogger segment of the media and less the guys who played the game portion of it.

Now Brad Stevens for COTY? Pretty sure he can start selecting a spot in his office or house for that.

To weather the Hayward injury, the mostly new team, and relying on so many guys in there first 2-3 years in the league and start out 15-2 is just fantastic work.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Why did Steph win MVP over Harden the first time?

Why did Steve Nash win MVP over Shaq and LeBron is consecutive years?

Why did Tim Duncan win MVP over Jason Kidd?

Los, while I understand what you are saying, these examples are not disproving my point whatsoever. Every single player you mentioned, whether their stats were better than who they won or lost it over or not, have a few things in common.

1:Their statlines were still among the best 5-7 in the NBA. And top 1-3 of their position.

2: Wildly successful teams (Kyrie at the moment has this criteria, we will see what their record ends up being overall)

3: They were unquestionably and unarguably the most impactful player on their own team/the most responsible for their teams success.

Kyrie is not even close on #1. His stats are currently below his stats from last year and he didn’t even make the all-NBA third team. He’s not the MVP. He’s not even an all-NBA first teamer at the moment. It’s just the truth.


#2 sure, but ultimately TBD. But right now yes. But the most important part of #2 ties to #3.

#3- Al Horford has been the most impactful Celtic this year by the numbers and it’s not even close. Even if we ignore the numbers somewhat and focus on eye-test...it’s undeniable how Horford has had every bit as much impact on 16-2 as Kyrie. Curry and Durant are no doubt penalized for this in MVP consideration. They are both clearly better than Kyrie and they are relegated to 3rd or 4th or 5th place MVP afterthoughts.


[quote It's beyond the numbers. The player with the best numbers doesn't win it every year and the best player on the best team doesn't win every year.[/quote]
But there is a general “minimum” set of criteria that has obviously been established and Kyrie Irving hasn’t not met that minimum and would have to take a legitimate leap in order to meet it.

Steve Nash won MVP over Kobe in 2006. The same season that LAL only had 7 fewer wins than PHX. The same season Kobe averaged 35 PPG. The same season Kobe scored 81 points!!!! Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, and Kwame Brown were top 5 in mutes played on that team. They took that PHX team with newly crowned b2b MVP Steve Nash to 7 games that year.

If 2017 Kyrie was in relation to the NBA and Boston Celtics what 2006 Steve Nash was in relation to the NBA and Phoenix Suns, this would be a valid argument. Alas, he is not.

Steve Nash was the unquestioned 1st team All-NBA PG in 2006. Is Kyrie 1st team all NBA this year? I’d absolutely positively love to hear a legitimate argument that he is..

 

[Jordan]

Why did Steph win MVP over Harden the first time? Why did Steve Nash win MVP over Shaq and LeBron is consecutive years? Why did Tim Duncan win MVP over Jason Kidd? It's beyond the numbers. The player with the best numbers doesn't win it every year and the best player on the best team doesn't win every year.

Steve Nash won MVP over Kobe in 2006. The same season that LAL only had 7 fewer wins than PHX. The same season Kobe averaged 35 PPG. The same season Kobe scored 81 points!!!! Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, and Kwame Brown were top 5 in mutes played on that team. They took that PHX team with newly crowned b2b MVP Steve Nash to 7 games that year.

I agree with your overall point. I just wanted to emphasize the bolded.

I am a huge Tim Duncan fan. But, frankly, there is zero reason Jason Kidd never won an MVP. I love Nash, but I take Kidd 10/10. He did so much, was a very good defender, and carried awful teams deep into the playoffs. Then, after he lost a step, he became a very solid 3+D point guard for Dallas and New York.

Butttttt, I'm biased. Kidd is my favorite non-Cav of all-time.

 

[Los216]

Los, while I understand what you are saying, these examples are not disproving my point whatsoever. Every single player you mentioned, whether their stats were better than who they won or lost it over or not, have a few things in common.

1:Their statlines were still among the best 5-7 in the NBA. And top 1-3 of their position.

2: Wildly successful teams (Kyrie at the moment has this criteria, we will see what their record ends up being overall)

3: They were unquestionably and unarguably the most impactful player on their own team/the most responsible for their teams success.

Kyrie is not even close on #1. His stats are currently below his stats from last year and he didn’t even make the all-NBA third team. He’s not the MVP. He’s not even an all-NBA first teamer at the moment. It’s just the truth.


#2 sure, but ultimately TBD. But right now yes. But the most important part of #2 ties to #3.

#3- Al Horford has been the most impactful Celtic this year by the numbers and it’s not even close. Even if we ignore the numbers somewhat and focus on eye-test...it’s undeniable how Horford has had every bit as much impact on 16-2 as Kyrie. Curry and Durant are no doubt penalized for this in MVP consideration. They are both clearly better than Kyrie and they are relegated to 3rd or 4th or 5th place MVP afterthoughts.


[quote It's beyond the numbers. The player with the best numbers doesn't win it every year and the best player on the best team doesn't win every year.

But there is a general “minimum” set of criteria that has obviously been established and Kyrie Irving hasn’t not met that minimum and would have to take a legitimate leap in order to meet it.





If 2017 Kyrie was in relation to the NBA and Boston Celtics what 2006 Steve Nash was in relation to the NBA and Phoenix Suns, this would be a valid argument. Alas, he is not.

Steve Nash was the unquestioned 1st team All-NBA PG in 2006. Is Kyrie 1st team all NBA this year? I’d absolutely positively love to hear a legitimate argument that he is..[/QUOTE]

You're really describing Kyrie like he's been dog shit bad this year.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

But there is a general “minimum” set of criteria that has obviously been established and Kyrie Irving hasn’t not met that minimum and would have to take a legitimate leap in order to meet it.





If 2017 Kyrie was in relation to the NBA and Boston Celtics what 2006 Steve Nash was in relation to the NBA and Phoenix Suns, this would be a valid argument. Alas, he is not.

Steve Nash was the unquestioned 1st team All-NBA PG in 2006. Is Kyrie 1st team all NBA this year? I’d absolutely positively love to hear a legitimate argument that he is..

You're really describing Kyrie like he's been dog shit bad this year.

BULLSHIT

Because I said he's not playing as well as prime Steve fucking Nash? Because I said he wasn't FIRST team all-nba? That equals dog shit bad? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.

Or because I pointed out his stats aren't on the same level of any NBA MVP pretty much ever?

Kyrie is annoyingly awesome. But he's not the MVP. That distinction can and does exist no matter how badly you want to defend him against anything that says he isn't one of the best 5 players in the league.

You know how good I thought Kyrie was last year, right? Fucking awesome player. Well, he's still just about exactly that good right now. Maybe he can still make a big leap to an MVP level. But he hasn't done it yet.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

With Harden out and the Rockets losing a ton of games recently (even before Harden's injury) it's gotta be James in the lead, right?