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2018 NBA Draft - June 21

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Luka Doncic is James Harden, IMO.

His ability to pass and change speeds is so Harden-esq.

Better defender than Harden, obviously. I'm a better defender than Harden.

I'm really glad someone else came up with this comparison as well. I've been saying for a while that Doncic is basically a white Harden. He's not as athletic or long as James, but their offensive games are very similar. Both are playing the old man's game, really crafty. Great passers. Both are sub-par on defense, but for different reasons. Harden simply doesn't seem to care about it and instead saves his energy for offense, while Doncic just doesn't have the lateral quickness to ever be a very good defender (though he can definitely become average in that department, he seems to have a really high basketball IQ). Also, I have some doubts about Doncic's ability to grow a beard like Harden has. :chuckle:

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I'm really glad someone else came up with this comparison as well. I've been saying for a while that Doncic is basically a white Harden. He's not as athletic or long as James, but their offensive games are very similar. Both are playing the old man's game, really crafty. Great passers. Both are sub-par on defense, but for different reasons. Harden simply doesn't seem to care about it and instead saves his energy for offense, while Doncic just doesn't have the lateral quickness to ever be a very good defender (though he can definitely become average in that department, he seems to have a really high basketball IQ). Also, I have some doubts about Doncic's ability to grow a beard like Harden has. :chuckle:

LC6YLwE.jpg


Doncic is longer than Harden, not just because he is taller, but he trumps him in standing reach, he currently measures at 8'11.5 to Harden's 8'7.5, so quite a big difference.
Yes, Harden has longer wingspan relative to his height, but his shoulders are also lower which limits his reach.

Comparing Harden's defense to Doncic is being unfair and inaccurate towards Doncic.
Doesn't matter if Harden's defense sucks because he is lazy or because he lacks lateral quickness.. he wasn't the quickest in his agility drills in 2009 draft combine and he can't stay in front of anyone quick on the perimeter right now, and what matters is the end result and he sucks.

Doncic on the other hand, is tasked to guard PGs, not SGs and SFs like Harden, so it's really not fair to judge him in that criteria, and I still think he does fairly well against Euroleague PGs.
I actually see Doncic as a positive player on that end, with the game going into off-ball screens more and more, I actually see him as quite an effective defender when surrounded by compatible players.

Both Harden and Doncic are good rebounders for their position. Harden in my opinion had quite an abberant year in terms of reboudning numbers. He was cherry picking and his contested rebounding rate was very low.. one of the lowest in the league.
Doncic otoh, while I don't have his advanced rebounding numbers, consistently boxes out much bigger players and takes higher % of contested rebounds in comparison.

Kevin Love, to no surprise has the highest uncontested reb % and that should be of no surprise to fans. I still think he is an impactful rebounder, but his numbers are skewed.

With the game going away from Iso and midrange game and evolving into more off-ball screens with illegal screens, 3pt shots and switching, Doncic's measurements and attributes far outweigh his athletic shortcomings.
Defensive awareness imo is more important than lateral quickness, especially if the game revolves around screens and less ISO.


On the offensive side, Doncic has ways to go and he may not reach Harden's ability because of his athletic deficiencies which limits him on that end much more imo.
Harden is very athletic, his spectactular finishing(whether it is by trying to draw fouls or not, doesn't matter) is what makes him such a threat from every range. Doncic FGA inside the arc is miniscule and if he doesn't improve in that aspect, it might limit his overall game on that end and his ceiling.

With all my love for Doncic, I still put Porter as my 1st overall pick atm.. he looks quicker and more explosive than he was a month ago and I expect that to improve further.
 
Doncic is longer than Harden, not just because he is taller, but he trumps him in standing reach, he currently measures at 8'11.5 to Harden's 8'7.5, so quite a big difference.
Yes, Harden has longer wingspan relative to his height, but his shoulders are also lower which limits his reach.

Comparing Harden's defense to Doncic is being unfair and inaccurate towards Doncic.
Doesn't matter if Harden's defense sucks because he is lazy or because he lacks lateral quickness.. he wasn't the quickest in his agility drills in 2009 draft combine and he can't stay in front of anyone quick on the perimeter right now, and what matters is the end result and he sucks.

Doncic on the other hand, is tasked to guard PGs, not SGs and SFs like Harden, so it's really not fair to judge him in that criteria, and I still think he does fairly well against Euroleague PGs.
I actually see Doncic as a positive player on that end, with the game going into off-ball screens more and more, I actually see him as quite an effective defender when surrounded by compatible players.

Both Harden and Doncic are good rebounders for their position. Harden in my opinion had quite an abberant year in terms of reboudning numbers. He was cherry picking and his contested rebounding rate was very low.. one of the lowest in the league.
Doncic otoh, while I don't have his advanced rebounding numbers, consistently boxes out much bigger players and takes higher % of contested rebounds in comparison.

Kevin Love, to no surprise has the highest uncontested reb % and that should be of no surprise to fans. I still think he is an impactful rebounder, but his numbers are skewed.

With the game going away from Iso and midrange game and evolving into more off-ball screens with illegal screens, 3pt shots and switching, Doncic's measurements and attributes far outweigh his athletic shortcomings.
Defensive awareness imo is more important than lateral quickness, especially if the game revolves around screens and less ISO.


On the offensive side, Doncic has ways to go and he may not reach Harden's ability because of his athletic deficiencies which limits him on that end much more imo.
Harden is very athletic, his spectactular finishing(whether it is by trying to draw fouls or not, doesn't matter) is what makes him such a threat from every range. Doncic FGA inside the arc is miniscule and if he doesn't improve in that aspect, it might limit his overall game on that end and his ceiling.

With all my love for Doncic, I still put Porter as my 1st overall pick atm.. he looks quicker and more explosive than he was a month ago and I expect that to improve further.

Thanks for the informative post. This is a bit off-topic, but any chance you could share the list of guys with the highest uncontested % in the league?
 
Sure.

I'll sort it by Guards, Forwards and Center.

Regardless, Westbrook leads everyone in the NBA by quite a big margin.. but you got to also include reb chances. There are players such as DeAndre Jordan and Gobert that have high unconstested reb %, but also high contested reb% because of their high reb chance. They put themselves in good position for a rebound.

So for Guards, it's Westbrook at the top with 8.4 uncontested reb per game and 2 contested rebs, Harden with 6.4 UR and 1.7 CR, Bradley with 4.7 UR, and 1.4 CR. Now, when I look at guards I also look at reb chance % and Westbrook leads all players (regardless of position) by far which pointw me to believe he consistently leaves his assingment to go for a rebound. That also includes Harden btw.

Forwards, you have Davis at the top with 7.7 UR and 4.2 CR, Love with 7.6 and 3.5, Cousins with 7.6 and 3.6 and Lebron with 6.4 and 2.2 ....:(


Centers, you have all your tops dogs at the top.. Jordan with 8.4 UR and 5.4 CR, Whiteside with 8.3 and 5.8, Drummond with 7.9 and 5.8 and Gobert with 7.8 and 4.9. Tristan fares pretty nicely against them with the highest contested reb % out of the 4 top rebounding centers, but comes up short against the likes of Robin Lopez, Steven Adams, Valanciunas, etc.

Both Chicago and Okc were top 3 rebounding teams, both of their Centers have mediocre raw rebounding numbers, but they take tons of space, they go for contested rebounds mor ethan anyone else and leave the uncontested rebounds for their teammates by boxing out.

It's no surprise to me the Cavs were a middle of the pack rebounding team despite having 3 very good rebounders in James, TT and Love.. they sucked much more when Love was injured, but they were still mediocre with him active. IT surely doesn't help anything when you have Frye and RJ coming off the bench at the 4/5.


Edit: oops, should have just posted the link! :(

http://stats.nba.com/players/reboun...7&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612760
 
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Doncic is longer than Harden, not just because he is taller, but he trumps him in standing reach, he currently measures at 8'11.5 to Harden's 8'7.5, so quite a big difference.
Yes, Harden has longer wingspan relative to his height, but his shoulders are also lower which limits his reach.

Comparing Harden's defense to Doncic is being unfair and inaccurate towards Doncic.
Doesn't matter if Harden's defense sucks because he is lazy or because he lacks lateral quickness.. he wasn't the quickest in his agility drills in 2009 draft combine and he can't stay in front of anyone quick on the perimeter right now, and what matters is the end result and he sucks.

Doncic on the other hand, is tasked to guard PGs, not SGs and SFs like Harden, so it's really not fair to judge him in that criteria, and I still think he does fairly well against Euroleague PGs.
I actually see Doncic as a positive player on that end, with the game going into off-ball screens more and more, I actually see him as quite an effective defender when surrounded by compatible players.

Both Harden and Doncic are good rebounders for their position. Harden in my opinion had quite an abberant year in terms of reboudning numbers. He was cherry picking and his contested rebounding rate was very low.. one of the lowest in the league.
Doncic otoh, while I don't have his advanced rebounding numbers, consistently boxes out much bigger players and takes higher % of contested rebounds in comparison.

Kevin Love, to no surprise has the highest uncontested reb % and that should be of no surprise to fans. I still think he is an impactful rebounder, but his numbers are skewed.

With the game going away from Iso and midrange game and evolving into more off-ball screens with illegal screens, 3pt shots and switching, Doncic's measurements and attributes far outweigh his athletic shortcomings.
Defensive awareness imo is more important than lateral quickness, especially if the game revolves around screens and less ISO.


On the offensive side, Doncic has ways to go and he may not reach Harden's ability because of his athletic deficiencies which limits him on that end much more imo.
Harden is very athletic, his spectactular finishing(whether it is by trying to draw fouls or not, doesn't matter) is what makes him such a threat from every range. Doncic FGA inside the arc is miniscule and if he doesn't improve in that aspect, it might limit his overall game on that end and his ceiling.

With all my love for Doncic, I still put Porter as my 1st overall pick atm.. he looks quicker and more explosive than he was a month ago and I expect that to improve further.

RE: Doncic vs Porter, I think it's crazy how much better filled-out Doncic is in spite of being almost a full year younger. It gives him the potential to play not only PG-SF, but also probably PF (and maybe even C?) on down the road.

Also, after seeing Jokic pan out I'm also officially finished using vertical explosiveness as a proxy for upside :chuckle:
 
RE: Doncic vs Porter, I think it's crazy how much better filled-out Doncic is in spite of being almost a full year younger. It gives him the potential to play not only PG-SF, but also probably PF (and maybe even C?) on down the road.

Also, after seeing Jokic pan out I'm also officially finished using vertical explosiveness as a proxy for upside :chuckle:

For sure. I think Doncic's frame will allow him to play PF.. no PF or a team should be able to guard him in the PnR, especially if you put Love at C in the corners and have Lebron act as the roller. If the other team wants to take Doncic in the post, so be it, It's still an ineffective shot.

The true barometer for playing PF is how good of a rebounder he is against PFs, not how well he guards them in the post.

But being completely honest, I rather take Doncic just because I know i'll like him more as a person and his passion is fire. Porter's facial expressions make me want to go to sleep.. he reminds me of a Anthony Randolph/ Lonzo Ball hybrid.
 
When you can't watch the game, and the play-by-play is not getting it done:

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When you can't watch the game, and the play-by-play is not getting it done:

xC7rr.png


xC7uQ.png




Lol...
Doncic got injured with 4 minutes left in the 3rd quarter.. twisted his ankle badly and was helped off the court.
He wasn't very good before it happened, but the difference with him off the floor was very noticeable. Slovenia had no backup PG to give Dragic a breather so he was exhausted and a net negative after the injury.. he had 35 points up until this point.

Somehow, Slovenia managed to win with their role players stepping up with both Dragic and Doncic on the bench. Luckily for Slovenia, Serbia's coach somehow decided to give them a chance by not playing Marjanovic in the 4th quarter. They had no answer for him and Serbia made their runs whenever he was on the court.

Doncic really hurt his stock with this performance. Looked bad on defense and was taking ill advised shots on offense. Still, it was heartwarming seeing him after they clinched the Gold.
 
[QUOTE="Sir'Dom Pointer, post: 2793148, member: 13718"

Doncic really hurt his stock with this performance. Looked bad on defense and was taking ill advised shots on offense. Still, it was heartwarming seeing him after they clinched the Gold.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he wasn't great today but he's 18 years old, playing against grown men, in a continental championship game no less. I mean, I'm not sure it's really possible for him to "really hurt his stock" after what he's already shown in this tournament.
 
[QUOTE="Sir'Dom Pointer, post: 2793148, member: 13718"

Doncic really hurt his stock with this performance. Looked bad on defense and was taking ill advised shots on offense. Still, it was heartwarming seeing him after they clinched the Gold.

Maybe he wasn't great today but he's 18 years old, playing against grown men, in a continental championship game no less. I mean, I'm not sure it's really possible for him to "really hurt his stock" after what he's already shown in this tournament.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, didn't actually hurt his stock.. just my perception of him is now lower than how it was 2 hours ago. This will probably last till he performs again.
But really, I always see huge positives and today I saw mostly negatives. I saw a lot of things that could be problematic at the next level.

I think a switching defense against him is going to prove to be effective, atleast at the start. Not sure he is fast or quick enough to create a quality shot after a switch.. and if you take his PnR ability, you really handicap his ceiling.

He was still a big positive on the floor despite his struggles and rebounded the ball well, so that's nice.
 
Bogdanovic was having problems with Doncic on him tho. On offense it seems he has quite some gravity, even if he is not directly scoring/assisting.
 
So let's say we keep the pick and it turns into no1 and we decide we do the draft. I would not go with D as a top choice. While he might have the effect of let's say Dirk, is that enough, do we want more dominant character? Aren't the other two top 3 candidates more of a star pull to build around in Cleveland? Especially if we get the maximum out of him and we keep Love and others post LeBron prime, will we be actually able to draft additional top talent to rebuild?Doncic is a playmaker, he needs others.
What would you do?
But, if we go by his national team veni, vidi, vici system...
 
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So let's say we keep the pick and it turns into no1 and we decide we do the draft. I would not go with D as a top choice. While he might have the effect of let's say Dirk, is that enough, do we want more dominant character? Aren't the other two top 3 candidates more of a star pull to build around in Cleveland? Especially if we get the maximum out of him and we keep Love and others post LeBron prime, will we be actually able to draft additional top talent to rebuild?Doncic is a playmaker, he needs others.
What would you do?
But, if we go by his national team veni, vidi, vici system...

We'll know better after we see how they all play this season. If Doncic wins Euroleague MVP, and Porter/Bagley put up numbers like Anthony Davis, whoever has the #1 pick will have a hell of a choice on their hands.

Realistically, I think there'll be some separation with one guy looking like an obvious superstar and the other two looking like "only" John Wall/Blake Griffin caliber guys who'd go #1 in most drafts but aren't generational talents.
 

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