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Addressing the hole at center

Discussion in 'Trades, Free Agency, & the Draft' started by Fuggles, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. Boom Outta Here

    Boom Outta Here Sixth Man

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  2. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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  3. jking948

    jking948 All-Star

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    Philadelphia was in discussions with Boston to get Jae Crowder and future picks solely for Noel. 100% they say no.

    Phoenix may say yes, but more than likely they wouldn't be willing to trade out three pieces of their core for one guy who will be unplayable when they get good, another who's a second year player, and a third who's coming off a down year.

    That is a really risky trade for the Cavs. They're trading two rotation players and getting two guys who more than likely don't provide anything more than the guys we traded.

    Dude, I don't know how many times people need to say it, good teams don't make trades like this. Matter of fact, most teams don't make trades like this. The NBA is a sport, similar to club football/soccer, where you are only as strong as your weakest link. Teams make trades to solve this problem. We just won a title, this trade does nothing to help us repeat, and for all we know will ruin chemistry.
     
  4. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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    In soccer, you are not as strong as your weakest link...that might be the only team sport in which you can hide 1 or 2 weak players on the field but ok.

    I know that trades like this barely happen but for your reasoning, i might disagree:
    - For Phoenix, those players are not their core anymore, save for Bledsoe and I do believe they wouldn't mind to trade him. Tucker has been replaced by Dudley and is now the odd man out, Len has been a disappointment so far and Bledsoe is key for whatever trade they want to make. On what they would get, Frye would fit right in with Dudley n Barbosa and could mentor Bendner, Shump would be their only guard who can defend and Okafor or Noel would be an upgrade over Len.

    - For Philly, they were willing to trade Noel for the right deal and Bledsoe would fit pretty well there. Their Logjam at C would be solved with Embiid the clear cut 1st option and they would unload Stauskas.

    - For the Cavs, imo Tucker, even being older, is way more consistant than Shump while proposing the same skillset, Okafor or Noel would fill the C back-up position, Noel fitting right there with the switch everything and Okafor offering post play and a cheap option for 3 years. Frye is a nice big with 3 point shooting but can't defend against the Warriors and the 3 points is solved for a year by Dunleavy if healthy.

    I get it that this is unlikely to happen but, IMO, this helps those teams with some of their issues.
     
  5. jking948

    jking948 All-Star

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    Lol, wut?

    Two brief examples: Weak link mattering more is why Portugal could beat France. Portugal's weak links weren't all that weak and they played well. France's did not and that cost them a goal. Secondly, remember the Championship League playoff game in 2011 between Swansea and Fulham? I do. Fulham had a much stronger top half of their roster, but their goalkeeper - Zurab Khizanishvili - was a huge weak link, made three giant mistakes in the first nine minutes, and Fulham could not fully recover. Swansea won with a weaker top-end of their team but less weak links.

    Statistically, this is also correct. In their book The Numbers Game, Chris Anderson and David Sally run a regression analysis on impact made by a team's strongest and weakest links utilizing the 2010-11 Castrol ratings. They find that a one degree improvement over a team's strongest player improves their overall point total by two points per season, whereas the same improvement for a weak player improves the team by four points. This is linearly consistent, as it takes place for each degree of improvement.

    Dude, Shump and Frye don't do anything for Phoenix. Bledsoe >>> Shumpert. And frankly, given potential, Len is more valuable than Frye to Phoenix. Len has not been a bust, frankly I don't think you watched any Suns last year because your knowledge of their team dynamic and what they are trying to build is non-existent. The Suns want to build a young team that plays fast while beating teams up in the middle.

    The only player in your deal that helps them is Okafor, and because of that, I said they may do the trade, but more than likely they wouldn't blow up their core just to reset themselves.

    Dude, you just said that Len is a bust. If that's true - it's not - why the hell would they trade Noel and Okafor - two huge potential players - for a bust, a useless Russian player, and a guard that plays a position Philly already has covered? This is nonsensical.

    -
    If you bring in Noel and trade Frye we have no three-point shooting off the bench. None. Sure, Noel may (I'll get to this in a second) help us beat the Warriors, but he makes beating teams like Detroit, Atlanta, and Indiana that will live with us shooting 3s significantly more difficult.

    Secondly, if Noel is on the court the Warriors will completely ignore him on defense. He's a worthless offensive player. At best Noel will become a Tyson Chandler, but not for a few years.

    I agree on PJ Tucker, but he's slowing down lately, not sure he has many more years as an athletic, hustling defender.

    No, it doesn't, it opens up new holes for literally every team, some of which are enormous ones.
     
  6. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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    Seems everything you say is the only way to see things...
    Sorry but using Portugal-France to prove your point is funny...France lost due to overconfidence when CR7 went down, lack of luck (hitting the post) while they had a lot against Germany, getting tired during the extra-time (one day less of rest) and a splendid move by the Portuguese coach when he added Eder and forced France to play a bit of defense, adding an anchor for the portuguese defenders to aim at to go out off their midfield. Portugal had way more weak links than France and they indeed played solid defense and were the most pragmatic team, which was France forte before trying to become a scoring machine which they are not...you know what, that proves my point! You can have the weaker links in soccer and hide them or make a tactical plan that hides them...thats the only team sport in which you can do that: Rugby, Handball, Volley-Ball, BB...you just can't!
    Now taking your crappy game (Swansea-Fulham...lul) to prove your point is weak as you take the only position in soccer that can't be hidden: Goalkeeper (that has been the weak link for England since Gordon Banks...see the results)

    Now, coming back to BB, Philly wouldn't trade Okafor + Noel for Len but for LEN AND BLEDSOE...not exactly the same given that besides Simmons (more of a point forward), they don't have a decent PG: Bayless is a combo guard & the Spanish is a decent back-up...McDonell reminds me a bit of Delly but still developing.
    Phoenix, whatever they tried last year didn't work, and that's why they are signing vets this year with Barbosa & Dudley. If you can't see that Len is a disappointment as a 5th pick (actually he regressed last year), then so be it but i bet they would kill to switch him with Okafor or Noel.
    As for 3 point shooting, Dunleavy, RJ are 40% shooters, while being 6-8/6-9, so don't think you would lose that much (even if a bit older). I love Frye and have been following him since his Phoenix days under Nash but even if he had some good games for the Cavs, I can't see him as such a difference maker that can't be replaced. He helped against Atlanta & Toronto but was non existent against Detroit & GSW.

    Now thats just my opinion and was to find a way for a decent Center for the Cavs as if they stay put, they are a bit weak up there imo.
     
  7. jking948

    jking948 All-Star

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    Sorry if it comes off this way, I do embrace debate, I just think you're missing the big point about why this trade would be bad for all teams involved.

    1) What you are saying about France exactly proves my point. France did a piss-poor job of hiding their weak links in central midfield and central defense. Pogba, Payet, and Griezmann all played great. But they couldn't convert possessions and were awful at dealing with Portugal's counter-attack. Portugal, meanwhile, lost their biggest strong link and won, partially, because they really don't have weak-links. Their squad is incredibly deep.


    2) So you're just going to ignore the example because you didn't watch it? And who says keepers can't be hidden? Out of any position they are the easiest to hide (Sergio Romero says hello).

    3)And you completely ignored the statistical study looking at every match in 2010-11. In soccer, weak links are more impactful than strong links.

    Dude, Philly would not trade just Noel for Jae Crowder, a future top-5 pick, and another first round pick next year. That was just Noel, no Okafor. Just because they eventually need make a trade doesn't mean they'll do it for shit pieces. They aren't looking to compete now, they are looking to compete two years from now. Taking an off-injured Bledsoe and a young center with a lot of potential - something that, mind you, makes the problem they escape from trading both Okafor and Noel bad again - is dumb. Then finally, you are asking them to take on Kaun's multi-million dollar deal, lol. It is a terrible long-term move and selling low when they don't have to.

    I'm sure they would kill for Okafor or Noel. But frankly, you're asking them to blow up two players that have been central to their team. They were injured last year, pretty much all of their core was out, just admit you didn't watch them. I don't know why people have been unable to admit they didn't watch a team lately, it's totally fine.

    Did you watch the Cavs before we got Frye? When LeBron wasn't playing with the bench, something that happens quite a bit during the regular season, we couldn't make a three to save our lives. Nobody knows how Dunleavy will be, he's old and coming off a huge injury, it's very likely he becomes Mike Miller. RJ is a decent three-point shooter, I'll give you that, but he doesn't really play as a big. He doesn't stretch the floor as a big. Who's our backup center that spreads the floor? Noel? Lol.

    Why are they a bit weak at backup center? TT has been outstanding and Frye is great against every team not named Golden State. News flash, Noel would be pretty bad against GSW too. That team eats backup centers for breakfast.
     
  8. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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    Who were the weak links for France? Do you really know Portugal players? (Do you watch Guingamp & Lille play to know their players?) I mean, no problem you know your football but don't say they have great depth...we are not talking abt their Pauleta-Figo-Deco era, the Portugal of today is a thin team who won being pragmatic n kind of lucky with how their bracket played out. During the game, they didn't counter-attack till the extra-time, couldn't get hold of the ball...France got opportunities but couldn't transform which is due to Portugal defense and counter-performance from Griezman. Now, I am not even sure you watched the game as Pogba & Payet were crap, they didn't hide anything cuz they couldn't do shit and besides the first 3 games for Payet, it has been the same for the whole tournament. You are asking if I watched Philly last year and that it was fine if I didn't but I could say the same thing with you n soccer as what you described as strong n weak links for my country has been all wrong save for Griezman before the finale.
    For goalkeepers, they can't be hidden. Romero made one great tournament like Patricio but if you play a full championship, like 38 games, they will cost you. That's the hardest position and you can't be average but sometimes some average ones have a string of 5-6 great games. The other option is having a great defense but against a top opponent, they will cost you or said better: they won't make a difference.

    Back to BB: For Philly, watched maybe 5-6 games but read a lot cuz love the experience they tried to make. Don't know where you read about the Noel for Crowder + 3rd + Pick but that doesn't reflect the many reports stating what they have proposed to several teams regarding Noel or Okafor. Len has potential as a back-up so he would be fine behind Embiid. Bledsoe has a decent contract in this new market and they need a point gard who could play off ball when Simmons handles it. Btw, Kaun has only this year guaranteed and we are talking 1.3M$!

    As for the Cavs, yeah I watched n Bron wasn't handling the 2nd team at the beginning of the 2nd again subsitutes but at the end of the 1st n 3rd...that might explain why it became so effective. Shanning helped but he is not a back-up C, he can play it but thats not him imo if you want defense n rebounding. He is decent but not much than that at this position. TT was awesome but he can't play C fulltime all season long...we are really thin upfront and I love to debate as well but I can't understand why you can't see that. Moz' was a shell of himself last year n honestly, for me at least, if Mozzy was the same as the 2015 one, Cavs would have blown everyone out. Still Champions ( thats great to say it) but the narrative would have been one of a Dominant team, not an underdog (which was a bit stupid though)
     
  9. thedarkness2332

    thedarkness2332 The Official Ass-Slap Guy

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    If this thread was an elevator, I'd walk in, hit all 24 floors, rip a huge fart, and walk out.
     
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  10. jking948

    jking948 All-Star

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    You know your football as well, so it's a pleasure discussing this with you. A few things, Portugal does not have a lot of strong players (Ronaldo, Nani, Patricio [I have seen him play before, not regularly tho], Sanchez, and Pepe) but they do not have many players who are weak, especially in the midfield. Essentially, Portugal is a pretty basic unit, so they don't have one player that costs them games more than another.

    Second, I don't know how you could say Pogba and Payet were crap this tournament. Did they play below expectations? Yeah, absolutely. But they weren't crap. Teams gameplaned for Pogba, and frankly, Deschamps decisions regarding formations and attacking strategy didn't do him any favors. Pogba's best usage is as a central attacking midfielder in a formation where he is provided a lot of space. Something France chose not to run. Payet played great the first few games, he simmered off later though, true. Nonetheless, this whole discussion proves my point: Pogba, Payet, and Griezmann - three of the 100 best players in football - were unable to power France through Portugal. Weak links were more impactful than the strong ones.

    To be honest I don't feel like digging through posts and websites looking for the link, but here's a basic one that gets to my point. Slight correction/error on my part, it was Okafor, not Noel. Nonetheless, my broad point still stands - http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelph...kafor-was-celtics-target-proposed-blockbuster

    The issue, man, is that you're asking Philadelphia to trade two former top-5 picks - one of who has the potential to be a defensive anchor and the other as an offensively gifted center who's already one of the best post-up bigs in the game - for two role players. Add to that, you are asking Philly to take on salary. The deal makes no sense for Philly unless you can get them Phoenix's upcoming pick and Cleveland's future pick. Even then, the deal is a big dice roll.

    The reason the bench's three-point efficiency shot through the roof is adding one floor spacer helps every floor spacer. Losing our proven best floor spacer off the bench is incredibly risky, especially for a guy who defenses can 100% ignore.

    Sure, I don't find most of what you said here problematic. I don't agree with all of it, but you make some fair points. Here is the problem: you are assuming that a rim protector is more important than a floor spacer.

    If there was a way to do the trade but not give up Channing, I'd do it in a second. But Channing was really important for us this season. If we move Channing and get Noel, we will have zero floor spacing bigs when Love is on the bench, and consequently LeBron and Kyrie will not be nearly as effective driving the ball. The whole reason we beat Golden State is because LeBron and Kyrie were Godly driving the ball.
     
  11. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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    Honestly, Pogba is really overrated. The guy is good but not a leader. He proved it at the beginning of the season with the Juve after Pirlo n Tevez left. When playing for France, he does the same, try to prove too much n is most of the time crap. Deschamps didn't help him but had to play him (popular player) while Kante n Sissoko who would hv brought way more.
    For the weak links, I can't see it. France ones are better than Portuguese ones tbh. The best team was Germany by far, then Italy n I think the finale saw the weaker team won (same in semis with Germany). Football is the least predictable team sport, thats maybe why this is the number 1 worldwide. (Korea went to semis...talk abt weak links in their team...wouldn't even play for Fulham now ;))

    The issue with Philly is they can't play their 3 C together and both Okafor n Noel have limitations (opposite of each other) n I think Okafor will be good but with a freaking stretch 4 rim protector (Anthony Davis)! lol
    They can't stay bad this year as they need to set up a winning culture there or they'll lose players and won't attract any. As they can switch their pick with Sac', they don't need to be bad (+ the Lakers' one). They do have to pick a PG n Westbrook is out of their ballpark so choices are Rubio n Bledsoe as available ones. Rubio can't shoot, the whole Philly team can't, n Bledsoe can + defend...the price of his contract is good for a low risk/high reward player + he shares the same agent as Simmons...Mr PAUL! Think that's a fair trade for them n they would still have shit loads of capspace this year n next.

    For the Cavs, I think Dunleavy n RJ will be fine for the 12 mpg needed to replace Channing. But a lack of real C will hurt at one point for sure. Think to make this trade good for both of us, ask Covington in this trade: mobile forward with length n volume 3 point shooter. I doubt Philly would agree though.
     
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  12. Rich

    Rich Saucin'

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    Jordan Hill was my hope but he signed for more than the vet minimum.
     
  13. Kal

    Kal A learning French guy

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    Does someone know why Terrence Jones hasn't been signed yet?
     
  14. The Red Viper

    The Red Viper NBA Starter

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    Interesting. What are the possible trades could we make to get Tyson Chandler?

    Would love to have him. He was below par last year but Phoenix were awful. In a good team, he has always shown what a good player he is.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BH0VIn8gicx/
     
  15. PIP

    PIP STIFF MEMBER Staff Member Moderator

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    Yup there's a picture with Love and Chandler.... He was also there with Paul Pierce and Kobe.

    I will say this tho about Tyson... 13 million for a few years is tough for an often injured soon to be 34 year old-- but damn a replacement for Tristan as the backup center (Andersen will probably be that) would absolutely love it.... LOVE it...
     

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