Andrew Wiggins

[gourimoko]

Eat your vitamins and say your prayers.

And if you are being sarcastic, I will make you....OBSOLETE!

DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!

 

[Sebastian]

Taking no position in the interpersonal pissing match happening right now, I do think Sir'Dom is absolutely correct about this. We were in too much of a hurry to make this trade and we didn't get as good a deal as we should have gotten. We really saved Minnesota's bacon by giving them a budding star in exchange for their departing star. Not really questioning the basic Love for Wiggins swap, but no way we should have had to give up a #1 in addition, or we should have been able to hold up Minnesota for another decent player (Dieng?). Our management was a little too eager to get the deal done and assemble their Big Three, and in retrospect they underestimated the importance of quality depth and assets. (A mistake they made again this year by letting Delly go).

There is no bacon. Flip Saunders (RIP) wasn't a fucking idiot. He didn't have to do shit and other offers would have come along. Getting Love for less has always been little more than fan speculation.

Not getting Dieng in the package is the only thing that is regrettable. But reality is reality.

Until Wiggins wins one of these, as a key member of his team, Cavs win that trade (always and forever, even if it is just one):

Wiggins can be ALL-NBA until 2030. If he never wins his team a ring it is meaningless. Ring in hand. Lets revisit the issue when the Wolves win a title.

 

[Rich]

Taking no position in the interpersonal pissing match happening right now, I do think Sir'Dom is absolutely correct about this. We were in too much of a hurry to make this trade and we didn't get as good a deal as we should have gotten. We really saved Minnesota's bacon by giving them a budding star in exchange for their departing star. Not really questioning the basic Love for Wiggins swap, but no way we should have had to give up a #1 in addition, or we should have been able to hold up Minnesota for another decent player (Dieng?). Our management was a little too eager to get the deal done and assemble their Big Three, and in retrospect they underestimated the importance of quality depth and assets. (A mistake they made again this year by letting Delly go).

Is this real life? Did I get warped into another universe where the Cavs did not just win the title? In retrospect they did what now? Holy moly.

Cavs weren't in a position of strength. They would not, listen here, NOT have had the cap space to sign Kevin Love the following summer. Thus, waiting out Minnesota was not an option. The only reason we even entered the Kevin Love sweepstakes was because we landed the number 1 overall pick. Without that, we did not have enough to compete with other offers teams were willing to make.

There's a team out there that is following your path of keeping all of your assets, hoping a team just gives them a star player because they're desperate, while giving up nothing of significance in return. The Boston Celtics. Go follow them. They seem like a perfect fit for what you're looking for. A team that way, way overestimates the importance of depth and assets. How's that going for them?

By the time they're ready to pull the trigger, people will have realized Marcus Smart isn't a star in the making and Terry Rozier sucks.

And if you're not "questioning the basic Love for Wiggins swap," then I don't see the problem. A future first in the late 20s, when talking about landing a player of Love's caliber, is, quite frankly, an afterthought. To let that hold up a potential deal would have been asinine.

Furthermore, they did us a favor by taking on Anthony Bennett's bloated ass rookie contract. People forget this, because most still thought Bennett had potential and wasn't a bust, but the Cavs most likely figured it out after just one year. He was a bust, he wasn't going to make it, and finding a way to dump him was a bonus for us.

Yea, I'd have loved to have gotten Dieng, but you know what? They were giving up, by the far, the best player in that trade. Generally, a team that is doing that doesn't also need to give up some other, young prospect, you know?

 

[Pioneer10]

So LaVine has a higher PER, better TS%, and WS on a lower usage rate then Wiggins.

Team is going to have some interesting choices: Rubio's probably gone by the end of the year. Hopefully Dunn fills that position for them but they need another quality big around Towns and it remains an open question if Lavine and Wiggins can co-exist.

 

[Jscc]

We used the Bird Rights we acquired in that Love/Wiggins trade to re-sign Kevin. If we didn't have them, imo, Kevin is gone. No way he takes a pay cut to stay with how he was treated here.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

We used the Bird Rights we acquired in that Love/Wiggins trade to re-sign Kevin. If we didn't have them, imo, Kevin is gone. No way he takes a pay cut to stay with how he was treated here.

But no one else had his bird rights so wouldn't it have just been an equal playing field?

FWIW I think Love would've re-signed regardless. He passed up a good bit of money by signing the deal he did instead of doing the ol LeBron 1+1 deal before the salary cap spike

 

[Derek]

We used the Bird Rights we acquired in that Love/Wiggins trade to re-sign Kevin. If we didn't have them, imo, Kevin is gone. No way he takes a pay cut to stay with how he was treated here.

What scenario are you referring to in which we acquire Love without his bird rights?

 

[catfish]

Wiggins # 20 SF in terms of PER and #68 in terms of RPM in year 3. CAVS has won a ship. Anyone who argues that CAVS did not win trade have a lack of reality testing.

 

[Jscc]

What scenario are you referring to in which we acquire Love without his bird rights?

Signing him as a free agent because of a false overpay scare as opposed to acquiring him through that Wiggins trade.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

Signing him as a free agent because of a false overpay scare as opposed to acquiring him through that Wiggins trade.

Wouldn't have been possible with our cap situation barring a massive gutting that would've likely made it not worth it

 

[Jscc]

Wouldn't have been possible with our cap situation barring a massive gutting that would've likely made it not worth it

That was my point. If it required a first rounder [which it did, apparently], then you do it. You're getting his Bird Rights. That's not an over-pay.

 

[catfish]

I find this discussion absolutely infuriating. CAVS won a ship. Nothing can be classified as an overpay because of that!

 

[Derek]

Signing him as a free agent because of a false overpay scare as opposed to acquiring him through that Wiggins trade.

Got it. I don't think signing him as a free agent was ever possible given our cap situation. So, never would have had him in the first place to ever lose him.

 

[Jordan]

Good article about Wiggins on The Ringer.

https://theringer.com/andrew-wiggins-timberwolves-advanced-stats-debate-1588a6909ce8#.rmvnfaob1

The first time many of us witnessed Andrew Wiggins was a 2012 reel of highlights modestly titled, “Andrew Wiggins Has SUPERSTAR Potential!! CRAZY OFFICIAL Mixtape!! #1 Player In The Nation.” The video, which has been viewed more than 2 million times, came out before his senior season at Huntington Prep, and showed him shaming schoolboys with tomahawk dunks and blocks during which his domepiece grazed the rim.


His freshman season at the University of Kansas ignited a leaguewide tanking “crisis,” with fans of franchises such as the Boston Celtics and Philadelphia 76ers begging their teams to lose. Wiggins was selected by the Cleveland Cavaliers with the first pick in the 2014 NBA draft, dealt in a blockbuster trade to the Minnesota Timberwolves, and won Rookie of the Year in a landslide vote.

Wiggins is three years into his professional career, still only 21 years old, and seemingly headed toward the basketball stardom that was recognized in the tea leaves and YouTube titles. After scoring 16.9 points per game as a rookie and 20.7 in his second campaign, the swingman was averaging 22.1 a night heading into Sunday’s game against the Warriors, placing 19th in the league. He’s attempting nearly four 3s a game and posting an impressive 37.5 3-point shooting percentage, far better than the 30 percent he notched last season. In mid-November, he dumped in a career-high 47 points on the Lakers, shooting 67 percent from the floor and marching to the free throw stripe 22 times. And, of course, Wiggins’s highlights this season are shareable Vine bait, like this one, in which he shoves the Warriors’ JaVale McGee into a coffin, nails it shut, and buries it several feet beneath the polished Oracle Arena floorboards.


Minnesota center Cole Aldrich compared Wiggins’s ability to that of a former teammate: Kevin Durant. “He’s just so talented,” Aldrich told The Ringerbefore a December game against the New York Knicks. “You don’t always know what he’s gonna do, because he’s so skilled. He may take you off the dribble and spin, he might put it on your head. He loves that pull-up jumper. He’s just kind of one of those guys that you look up at the scoreboard and you don’t notice that he’s got 25.”

Even if Wiggins’s rise has felt a bit scripted, his game has passed the casual sniff test. But a deeper look at more advanced numbers reveals a disconnect between his measurable contributions and his breathtaking athleticism, accumulation of buckets, and rep as one of the league’s glittering superstars-in-waiting. (This is obviously the point in the story where certain readers bellow, “Watch the games, nerd!” and fling their Motorola StarTAC into the sea.)

According to VORP — a metric which gauges “value over replacement player” — Wiggins has one of the worst ratings in the NBA this season, with a ranking that places him alongside such names as Jarell Martin, Isaiah Whitehead, and Semaj Christon. ESPN’s RPM (real plus-minus) ranks Wiggins 68th among small forwards, sandwiched between Kelly Oubre Jr. and Derrick Jones Jr. With all due respect to the juniors, this is not the company we expect Wiggins to be keeping in his third season.

Last week, professional sports gambler and basketball scout Dean Demakis published an article with the inflammatory title “Andrew Wiggins is a Bust”on his site, Dean on Draft. In the piece, Demakis charted Wiggins’s statistical development alongside wings like LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard, and Rudy Gay. His conclusion: “Andrew Wiggins is clearly not on the path to greatness.” This prompted furious responses from the internet commentariat. “Did Wiggins bang ur GF or something? You salty AF fam,” someone named Billy rebutted. While the war between the eyes and the numbers is nothing new, advanced stats are crucial to figuring out what kind of player Wiggins is now and the one he can someday be.

We know that Wiggins scores in bunches and in a variety of ways. While he’s a tick below league average by efficiency — mostly because of a frustrating penchant for long 2s — he’s nevertheless a volume shooter who is often asked to create shots for others. Along with his improved 3-ball, he’s an above-average scorer in isolation and out of the post, dangerous in transition because of his ability to fly, and excellent at getting to the line. His pet move is a whipping spin in the lane during which he attacks the basket like a tornado splintering a farmhouse.


“He’s not the biggest dude, but he’s extremely strong in the post,” said teammate Zach LaVine. “He uses his body well, uses his length and athleticism well. He’s been getting his jump shot to the point where you have to get up and guard him — and then he can go around you.”

But Wiggins needs to work on his passing. He’s averaging a paltry 2.3 assists per game, fine for a 3-and-D wing like Trevor Ariza or a catch-and-shoot marksman like Klay Thompson, but disappointing for a player who usually needs the rock in his hands to create scoring opportunities. A bit of good news: According to player tracking, Wiggins is averaging 4.8 potential assists a game, up slightly from last season’s 4.3.

Some of his struggles with distribution could be situational. Playing alongside a ball-dominant point guard in Ricky Rubio and an elite offensive big man in Karl-Anthony Towns, Wiggins spends long stretches of the game lurking. LaVine takes 15.9 shots a game, and he’s also more of a scorer than a lubricant. Sometimes Wiggins goes invisible, slipping into the background like a beer vendor.

Still, he’s a solid offensive player. The scary issues come on the other side of the ball. While Wiggins was advertised as a potential lockdown perimeter defender and had a ballyhooed performance against James Harden as a rookie, the numbers don’t give him the same credit.


This season, he’s averaging an abysmal 4.0 rebounds, 0.5 steals, and 0.3 blocks a game, down from his already-anemic career averages. His defensive box plus/minus is a shocking minus-4.0, even worse than last season and roughly the same as semipermeable humans Bojan Bojanovic and D.J. Augustin. On/off splits are noisy, especially this early in the season, but opponents are scoring 5.5 points more per 100 possessions when he’s on the court. Wiggins is rangy, springy, and has the tools to be a dynamic defender — but he isn’t doing nearly enough stuff. In the Timberwolves’ December 2 game against the Knicks, he finished the first half with seven points, one rebound, zero assists, zero steals, and zero blocks. But by the end, just as Aldrich had predicted, Wiggins had used an assortment of jumpers, free throws and fast-break buckets to amass a quiet 19 points.

Despite the arrival of coach Tom Thibodeau, a grimacing defensive guru who last worked in Chicago, the Wolves are currently 27th in the league in defensive rating. Minnesota sagged to a dreary 6–18 after Sunday night’s loss to Golden State, and is dramatically underperforming preseason expectations for a team with the past two Rookies of the Year. The defense is the culprit, and its putridity has produced statistical oddities like this nearly-inexplicable nugget: By defensive real plus-minus, Towns is ranked last out of 68 centers.

“We just gotta make an effort,” said Shabazz Muhammad, a fourth-year player. “Coach says we’re one of the most athletic teams in the league. What we do on the offensive end, we gotta figure out how to do on the defensive end. That’s just moving your feet and being disciplined. We’re a young team, but at some point we have to get those intangibles down and be able to contest our own guys and guard our own men.”

Wiggins doesn’t play with a noticeable lack of activity — he runs the floor, scrambles around picks, closes out diligently on shooters — but he wears the kind of emotionless mask that is bound to attract skepticism about his effort and passion. Guys like Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard were or are successful, so they’re considered efficient machines, unencumbered by the frailties of anxiety or overexuberance. But a stone-faced kid like Jahlil Okafor of the Sixers, who also struggles defensively and with rebounding, is savaged by fans for not caring enough about the more selfless elements of the game. If Wiggins does not improve, even if his deficiencies have nothing to do with mental toughness, it’s likely his impassivity will get the same scrutiny.

“He’s so quiet,” said Jordan Hill, who signed with Minnesota this offseason. “He don’t talk much. He’s so cool, so laid-back. I feel if he got that Kobe mentality or that Russell Westbrook mentality to go out every night and just be fierceful — ain’t nobody gonna stop him. He’s just that good of a player. There’s nothing wrong with being quiet or laid-back. He could be shy, may just want to be by himself. He still goes out there and plays ball. It’s his third year in the league, he still hasn’t gotten to that bright spot. He’s gonna get there and shock the world.”

Wiggins has talent and time. Metrics that question his immediate impact also indicate that young players usually improve. And few 21-year-olds have the freakish physical attributes he has at his disposal. His prime is years away, and writing him off is clearly premature. But Wiggins has holes in his game that need to be patched up, or his reputation as a rising superstar will start to fray.

 

[catfish]

In another words for a guy who was regarded as a generational player he busted.

Good article about Wiggins on The Ringer.

https://theringer.com/andrew-wiggins-timberwolves-advanced-stats-debate-1588a6909ce8#.rmvnfaob1