Racial Tension in the U.S.

[The Human Q-Tip]

Are you talking about personal compensation or systemic compensation?

Either.

Because it seems like in your head, and a few heads around here, these things don't even exist. Are we now switching to "sure, white privilege exists but what do you want me to do about it?" (With a dash of whataboutotherprivileges?)

I've said more times than I can count that 1) there are some disadvantageous to being black, and 2) there are a whole lot of other cards each of us are dealt in life that can be advantages/disadvantages as well that may be far greater than skin color.

Nor am I "switching" to anything. I've been asking you that exact same question repeatedly, because I think inherent in the usage of that term are some things that a lot of folks would oppose. So why not (finally) answer it? What kind of compensation (if any), systemic or personal, do you think is appropriate?

I never disavowed affirmative action, if that's what you're saying, by the way. The only point I remember making about it is the fact that you seem to complain about it as if it's the entire race debate.

That's how I interpreted the following statement in the context of your answer to another poster:

I don't know what this is referring to. I assume affirmative action or something? Nobody has proposed anything here that aligns with this defense.

But since perhaps my interpretation was wrong, why not clarify what you meant? Do you support some form of affirmative action to compensate for "white privilege"? And if so, what exactly are you proposing?

And you keep stating this as if I could only come up with one thing while you've yet to present a single solution for race issues (in large part because you barely acknowledge the role race plays in our society). The fact is that any race issues that are brought up get dismissed as non-issues in here.

This is manifestly untrue. It is obvious that race still plays some role in our society. More for some than for others. And I've been consistent about my "solution" to those issues. Our laws have been changed to make government-sanctioned discrimination illegal. Violations, when found, should be corrected.

Beyond that, each of us should start by treating/judging others not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Treat them as equal individuals regardless of their skin color. And if we see an individual being treated adversely because of their skin color, speak out/act against it. I follow that every single day in my own life.

I don't think continuing to promote thinking of people as members of a group rather than as individuals is ever going to solve our racial problems. They're not solved yet, and there is no magic bullet, but I absolutely believe it must start with looking at people as individuals.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

We've been over this. It's a broad term that covers social movements, arts, history, communities, religion.

That's a definition of the word "culture" generally. It's not a definition of black culture. I'm asking for you to define black culture.

Of course there are first generation Africans. They face similar and sometimes more severe racism in this country. It's really interesting to see the contrast in racial experience between a guy like Trevor Noah, who's South African, and black Americans. I have never stated that all black people are strictly part of some homogeneous group. I'm not say A culture as in "they only get one" but as in there is ALSO this phenomenon. There are overlaps and separations. Using the term "black culture" doesn't negate that at all. Quit suggesting that because it makes no sense.

It would be much easier if you would define what you mean by "black culture". That's about the sixth time I've asked you to define a term you've used, and you still won't do it. Is it because when you start trying to type it out, you realize how bad it sounds/looks?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

*It's possible you've acknowledged individual issues at some point in some fashion, but by and large you seem to ignore systemic issues and see everything as simply actions of individuals, as do most members of the conservative movement.

Well, I'm still waiting for your proposed "systemic" solutions. Or any solution, really.

As for conservatives seeing people as individuals...thank you. We try.

 

[Soda]

I see the same thing, with regard to seeing actions of individuals rather than groups, when a BLM protester goes full racist every-other week. We get told that's not how BLM is, which I believe. Well, not all people, including conservatives, "seem to ignore systemic issues and see everything as simply actions of individuals". That's a double standard.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I see the same thing, with regard to seeing actions of individuals rather than groups, when a BLM protester goes full racist every-other week. We get told that's not how BLM is, which I believe. Well, not all people, including conservatives, "seem to ignore systemic issues and see everything as simply actions of individuals". That's a double standard.

Exactly. But at least ascribing to BLM, whatever it may be, is an act of individual volition. Race is not.

I should point out that in terms of "affirmative action", I have zero problems with schools or employers being more open to people who are on first base because they hit a single rather than being born on third. How far an individual has come is as important as where they are at the moment, because it suggests their future trajectory.

But that shouldn't be based on race.

 

[-Akronite-]

Either.

I find this to address it pretty well, as an introduction at least.

But since perhaps my interpretation was wrong, why not clarify what you meant? Do you support some form of affirmative action to compensate for "white privilege"? And if so, what exactly are you proposing?

I'm undecided on the issue of affirmative action generally because I understand the apparent necessity as well as the criticisms. I lean toward accepting it but I'm not certain.

Again, my point was simply that working on white privilege doesn't boil down to just affirmative action.

I don't think continuing to promote thinking of people as members of a group rather than as individuals is ever going to solve our racial problems. They're not solved yet, and there is no magic bullet, but I absolutely believe it must start with looking at people as individuals.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, in theory, but I think on a lot of issues many conservatives fail to recognize when there is legally sanctioned discrimination. You SAY that when these things crop up we should deal with them, but when they get presented (the systemic issues and solutions you ask for even though they have been discussed here over and over) you tend to dismiss them.

For instance, I just mentioned voter suppression laws again, which I find to be a major systemic issue. But you see it as a voter fraud issue (correct me if you feel otherwise), even though voter fraud is practically non-existent and we have a major voter deficit in this country. Courts have ruled on some of these laws and exposed what's happening, and it's racial discrimination.

When it comes to police brutality, what do you see as a solution? Probably punishing individuals when it can be proven there was a racial element. That's part of it, but there needs to be a change in culture so that there isn't the fear and mistrust between black communities and police and that there is proper training for dealing with unarmed civilians. When we narrow it down to simply individual actions without recognizing the large trend, we make it difficult to enact actual solutions.

And your policy of everyone doing their part and taking care of racism when we see it isn't bad, it just doesn't solve everything. What do you suggest we do to create more equality in education and the economy and government? Are there solutions to these larger issues or do you believe that if we start treating everyone as you've stated that blacks will 'catch up' or something.

It would be much easier if you would define what you mean by "black culture". That's about the sixth time I've asked you to define a term you've used, and you still won't do it. Is it because when you start trying to type it out, you realize how bad it sounds/looks?

Let me Google what I just said for you.

And an illustration of how black Americans are different from Africans, which is integral in their developed culture.

 

[Soda]

Exactly. But at least ascribing to BLM, whatever it may be, is an act of individual volition. Race is not.

I should point out that in terms of "affirmative action", I have zero problems with schools or employers being more open to people who are on first base because they hit a single rather than being born on third. How far an individual has come is as important as where they are at the moment, because it suggests their future trajectory.

But that shouldn't be based on race.

I do, personally, think that only good can come from an edict to "make sure you're canvassing the entire pool, rather than in your comfort zone". An instance of "systemic racism" can absolutely manifest itself in a white employer's propensity to recruit in his/her comfort zone. Having AA and, in the NFL, the Rooney Rule IMO is a good thing because it pushes those very-very insulated white owners to do a complete canvas. That puts them into a position they may have simply just avoided in the past. Even IF they avoided them without thinking, "hey, I'm just looking at white guys", which may be an area of ignorance for that hiring party. To boot, it could present the best candidate for a particular job that you may have missed.

After-all, it's being put in unfamiliar circumstances that ultimately educates one to see beyond comfort/their preconceived norms. In my opinion, anyways.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I find this to address it pretty well, as an introduction at least.

Yeah, I'm not watching a six and a half minute video. If you are going to state a position, type words on a page where we all can read them, and where we don't have to guess at your meaning.

I'm undecided on the issue of affirmative action generally because I understand the apparent necessity as well as the criticisms. I lean toward accepting it but I'm not certain.

Well that's a whole lot of nothing.

Again, my point was simply that working on white privilege doesn't boil down to just affirmative action.

Other than busing, what is it?

For instance, I just mentioned voter suppression laws again, which I find to be a major systemic issue. But you see it as a voter fraud issue (correct me if you feel otherwise), even though voter fraud is practically non-existent and we have a major voter deficit in this country. Courts have ruled on some of these laws and exposed what's happening, and it's racial discrimination.

So voter I.D. laws, and busing. Anything else?

And to clarify, a great many courts have found that voter I.D. laws are perfectly acceptable in general. A lesser number of courts have tossed out specific laws for specific reasons.

When it comes to police brutality, what do you see as a solution?

There is no complete solution, and none of the solutions that would reduce it significantly are either easy or certain. But it is not just a "black" problem.

In any case, you're the one telling me that I'm part of the problem because I don't believe in "systemic" solutions, and that's true with respect to race. I've been asking you repeatedly for the specific systemic actions that you support to compensate for "white privilege". And honestly, you keep ducking htat.

Probably punishing individuals when it can be proven there was a racial element. That's part of it, but there needs to be a change in culture.....

What does that mean, specifically?

Look, I'll be honest. It very often feels that on this entire issue, you're kind of regurgitating generalities/platitudes without offering specifics. And when someone presses you for specifics, you either infer that they don't care about those issues, or that they're closed-minded. And I'm still waiting for your definition of "black culture".

And your policy of everyone doing their part and taking care of racism when we see it isn't bad, it just doesn't solve everything.

Nothing is going to solve everything. You may want to reread that a few times.

What do you suggest we do to create more equality in education and the economy and government? Are there solutions to these larger issues or do you believe that if we start treating everyone as you've stated that blacks will 'catch up' or something.

Well, my view of a just society isn't dependent on outcomes, so whether or not everyone ends up "equal" in terms of life outcomes isn't something I'm interested in pursuing anyway. But you're the guy who chastised me for not supporting systemic solutions, right? So again, what are your proposed solutions?

 

[-Akronite-]

Yeah, I'm not watching a six and a half minute video. If you are going to state a position, type words on a page where we all can read them, and where we don't have to guess at your meaning.

I mean, it's also an entertaining video and worth a watch. If you don't care enough to watch it that's on you, I'm not here to satisfy your every whim.

Well that's a whole lot of nothing.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT?

Do I HAVE to be decided on every issue? Would you prefer that I'm fervently in favor of affirmative action and attacking your opinion? I would have to assume yes because you WANT me to just be some embodiment of liberal ideals even though you claim to want to treat people like individuals. You want me to be the strawman you're trying to knock down.

Other than busing, what is it?

So voter I.D. laws, and busing. Anything else?

Sure, I'll play your game so that down the line it will be:

So voter ID laws and busing and police brutality and the war on drugs and housing discrimination and media representation and the prison system and...

What does that mean, specifically?

Some proposed policies can be found within this article (the section labeled Attitudes Toward Policy Changes And Tensions Between Police And Minority Communities). I'm not an expert on either the problems nor the solutions, but I personally recognize that the issue exists and I believe there are steps that can be taken to reduce it's effect.

Look, I'll be honest. It very often feels that on this entire issue, you're kind of regurgitating generalities/platitudes without offering specifics. And when someone presses you for specifics, you either infer that they don't care about those issues, or that they're closed-minded.

I'm not inferring anything, you're dismissing the issues and offer zero solutions. You stated a platitude about dealing with people as individuals and consider yourself done with the issue.

And I'm still waiting for your definition of "black culture".

So you'll just keep repeating the same questions after I answer them and then chastise me for not answering them?

Nothing

is going to solve everything.

Then stop asking me to solve everything.

EDIT: Also, why is it so important that solutions come from me? I'm not a race expert, I seek out ideas from other sources. There is zero reason for me to have to come up with solutions myself. I'm not asking that of you, feel free to post the policy of some conservative lawmaker you like, I don't give a shit.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT?

So in terms of "what the fuck I want", I want the guy who castigates others for not supporting "systemic" remedies to come up with systemic remedies that are worthy of support. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

I know you don't think I care much/think much about this stuff, but you'd be wrong. I'd wager I've thought about it a lot more than you have. And the reality is the self-righteous generality of "we need systemic compensation for this white privilege" loses a lot of its appeal when you actually start reducing those systemic fixes to writing. Because it is at that point that the problems become apparent. You're taking the easy way out.

So voter ID laws and busing and police brutality and the war on drugs and housing discrimination and media representation and the prison system and...

You're describing problems, not offering solutions.

EDIT: Also, why is it so important that solutions come from me? .

Because if you're going to call people out for not support the right solutions, then you need to articulate what you believe those solutions are. And directing me to websites that aren't specific, and whose text isn't apparent here, doesn't help obtain clarity as to what you actually support.

Here's the issue:. The devil in many of the proposed solutions is always in the details. It sounds great in theory, then when you start actually writing it down and getting specific, problems become apparent. So when you refuse to get specific, it means you're abandoning your argument right at the point it become vulnerable to criticism. The other thing you are perhaps not considering is that some of the problems you identify actually need to be solved without regard to race, because they affect people of all races. And in many case, I support that.

So let's try this out with just one thing, okay? You mentioned "media representation". What exactly does that mean, and what is the race-specific remedy you support to fix that?

(And you still haven't said what you mean by "black culture"). I'm guessing that perhaps you're thinking "urban hip-hop culture", but don't want to say it because you know it's stereotyping.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Well, let's see what's going on in this thread...

 

[gourimoko]

Well, let's see what's going on in this thread...

I'm 100% confident that every Black member of RealCavsFans is think the exact same thing you are right now, and really for quite some time.

 

[-Akronite-]

You're describing problems, not offering solutions.

Neither are you.

(And you still haven't said what you mean by "black culture"). I'm guessing that perhaps you're thinking "urban hip-hop culture", but don't want to say it because you know it's stereotyping.

I did. It's linked above. And your assumption is nonsense. I'm no longer going to debate you on this because it's apparent that if I present something you pretend it doesn't even exist. When I've brought anything to the table you've simply dismissed it, thrown out your own platitude about treating people like individuals, and then asked the same question again. I like citing my arguments and appealing to other sources when discussing topics because I don't consider myself to be someone with all the answers. I state my opinion and then try to show the things that helped me reach that opinion. That isn't good enough for you, oh well.

 

[Cavatt]

I think the education system needs a complete revamp and so does the money allocated to schools. You can't have one super funded school in rich area and one that is underfunded nearby. If the states run the schools, all the money should be distributed per capita and then extras for special needs etc.

More attention needs paid to real world success skills in addition to math and science. Schools should open a bank account for every student and they should have a very small amount of money put in there so kids can understand money.

I believe in welfare to some degree, but putting all the people that are having a hard time in one place is a bad idea. I think the same thing about Prison. You don't become better at something by hanging out with those who have failed. People on public assistance need to be around good examples.

It seems like we are saving money by half assing it and building a huge building to house a bunch of people, but really you are spreading failed strategies to many new generations. 9/10 problems in our society are due to short term planning and it needs to stop. We have to look beyond the next quarter and have real leadership where we actually talk seriously about wealth and education inequality and what we are going to do as Americans in this next 100 years.

Is making money our only goal? Some of us are already good at that. Shouldn't we be focusing on really addressing the problems in society and making the world a better place? It used to be an American ideal, but now we are just going to ignore everyone who had some hard times and get ours.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Neither are you.

I did offer solutions. You just don't think they're sufficient, but at least the solutions I've offered are consistent with the problem I've described. Once you've eliminated discrimination in terms of laws, which truly are an across the board, systemic form of discrimination, things start to get murkier, and across the board, race-based remedies become much dicier.

Let me give you an example. For the most part, the Supreme Court has said that race-based college admissions are discriminatory. I don't support them anyway. However, I do support an admissions process that takes into account how far someone has come, and not just where they are. So for example, if one kid went to the finest prep schools and scored a 1420 on their SAT, and another kid from a horrible background scored a 1370, I'd personally be included to favor the kid who got the 1370.

Of course, my "solution" doesn't take race into account at all. Why should it? Malia Obama shouldn't get a "plus" for race over some impoverished white kid from Appalachia, because she's the one starting on third base.. But it might have the effect of helping disadvantaged kids, who are disproportionately (thought not exclusively) black. I support such things that will help black people (and other disadvantaged people) be treated fairly.

Housing? Well, it already is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, redlining is illegal, and you get your attorneys fees if you sue and win. I completely agree with you that discriminating on the basis of race is wrong, but what else do you want to do about it? Answers are not easy, because a whole lot of bigotry/racism is difficult to prove to any degree of certainty. And if you push to hard on systemic government mandates/remedies, you'll find that you're lending to people who cannot afford the loans they've taken out. So mandating private sector action can raise additional problems.

I did. It's linked above. And your assumption is nonsense. I'm no longer going to debate you on this because it's apparent that if I present something you pretend it doesn't even exist.

No, I want you to present me with something specific and not just direct me to a bare link with many pages of text, where I have to try to dig to find something specific.