Racial Tension in the U.S.

[Tornicade]

The system is the system. And with power corruption will follow. We can only do so much about that. We need the police. As awfully as they've handled many situations with me and with others, theyd be a lot worse without them. Any entity is going to come with negative repercussions. The easiest thing to control is yourself. And no, it isnt always fair. We're all being oppressed in different ways. I have a temperament so petulant i can hardly function. Make the world easier where you can, but the easiest place, or at least the place that you are in control of mostly, is with yourself.

This isnt an easy place for anyone. Difficulty and pain is literally inevitable throughout your entire life. Everything good will end, everyone you know will die, and heck, you will too. And maybr youre not pretty enough, or thin enough, or smart enough, or likeable, or you like the wrong sports team, or the guy interviewing you is a racist. Yes, theres progress to be made. Were all going through shit and we dont need to make enemies of everyonr else and everything else. You dont know the struggle theyre going through and you very well could be responsible for making them struggle with your behavior and actions.


If the answers were simple, we'd have them.

One certainly can have no impact on societal issues if they look upon everything on an individual level.

 

[Wrathe]

The problem with that kind of color-blind thinking is that there are many people who will gladly listen to "this is how everyone should be treated;" until they run across a group of people they don't consider to be "everyone." This is why race and gender and sexual orientation has to be brought up, because unfortunately in the eyes of many, we're not all equal parts of this "everyone" concept.

I disagree, if someone isn't intelligent enough to understand the concept of "everyone", Ohio is an at-will state. Goodbye.

No time for command and control management, all about principles. If you're not smart enough to run w/ those, you shouldn't be there.

 

[Snarly]

It kills me that I will target the "Mike Brown" and "Derren Wilson" aspect as this is why I feel this whole thing is a show or meant for a bigger scale. So as that happened they were against Police violence by white cops, Okay it happens and both parties are guilty in a way yet the cop as stories told went to far.

The streets filled with rage all this damage and the damage was done, No one helped them they just let it go and hoped everyone would support the BLM movement. Well guess what they did is brain wash people into hating all white men and sometimes women. Then protests became cool and edgy and the thing to do. Giving idiots a voice to put the violent idiots that came before.

Thank god people here are civil because this is really a messed up way of going about this. They want us divided again so they can issue rule over us make us rely on them. This is while Trump is not the right man but he did not let that happen. Think about it as Obama basically let the Heart of the country "STL" explode. Then it all leads to these protests where everyone is sick of it.

The bottom line and to stand up is who gives a fuck what race anyone is. If you are human they are as well. We have to stick together and no matter how hood or rich someone is we have to live in peace or else they will divide us till we have no more freedom of speech. I am posting this to sound smart just sift through all the shit and you will find a gem.

Sorry for this long post but it needed to be said by me and this is my opinion and take as I feel as this world is sinking. I mean the LeBron and Lue posts here should tell you people are going mad off such small things. Take a visit to a park or just enjoy life for a change, Black or White Red or Green who cares as we all need to get away from this force feed shit now and then live our life. You never know what great people you might meet.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

It kills me that I will target the "Mike Brown" and "Derren Wilson" aspect as this is why I feel this whole thing is a show or meant for a bigger scale. So as that happened they were against Police violence by white cops, Okay it happens and both parties are guilty in a way yet the cop as stories told went to far.

The streets filled with rage all this damage and the damage was done, No one helped them they just let it go and hoped everyone would support the BLM movement. Well guess what they did is brain wash people into hating all white men and sometimes women. Then protests became cool and edgy and the thing to do. Giving idiots a voice to put the violent idiots that came before.

Thank god people here are civil because this is really a messed up way of going about this. They want us divided again so they can issue rule over us make us rely on them. This is while Trump is not the right man but he did not let that happen. Think about it as Obama basically let the Heart of the country "STL" explode. Then it all leads to these protests where everyone is sick of it.

The bottom line and to stand up is who gives a fuck what race anyone is. If you are human they are as well. We have to stick together and no matter how hood or rich someone is we have to live in peace or else they will divide us till we have no more freedom of speech. I am posting this to sound smart just sift through all the shit and you will find a gem.

Sorry for this long post but it needed to be said by me and this is my opinion and take as I feel as this world is sinking. I mean the LeBron and Lue posts here should tell you people are going mad off such small things. Take a visit to a park or just enjoy life for a change, Black or White Red or Green who cares as we all need to get away from this force feed shit now and then live our life. You never know what great people you might meet.

Holy Mother of God did reading that give me a headache. And that's just the first paragraph.

I think @Snarly has managed to do the impossible -- send alcohol through the internet. Reading one of his posts make you feel like you're drunk, and you get stuck with a bad hangover headache afterwards.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

One certainly can have no impact on societal issues if they look upon everything on an individual level.

I don't see how that is remotely true. Society consists of individuals, and the actions of every individual always has some effect. When enough individuals act, the change throughout a society becomes more apparent on a larger scale, but the individual acts still have an impact on their own.

And that's actually a different point from the one you made. A single person who looks on everything at the individual level can have enormous societal impact if they disseminate their views widely, or see them enacted into legislation, etc..

For example, it's worthwhile pointing out that most of our anti-discrimination laws are premised on that same concept -- that each individual must be evaluated as such without regard to their race, gender, etc.. And certainly, those laws have had an enormous impact.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

uh no its called provide the constitutional right at an equal measure.

Don't break the law... lol

who pays for your attorney David?


the point is everyone is innocent until proven guilty and everyone has a right to legal counsel to aid in the defense.

Funding is not equal. The scales of justice are off.

That is what creates the divide.

so if the goal here is to ensure people are treated equally by the government is to improve legal counsel for the indigent.

because until a judge and a jury issue a guilty verdict its just some guy saying someone broke the law.

They still have to prove it.



Now I have supported ,demonstrating with easily verifiable statistics, an imbalance in the justice system. at an institutional level.

It is a problem that can and should be addressed.

maximum standards for how many cases public attorney handle a year by case type and when those numbers are reached either bringing in more public attorneys or contracting out as some cities havel already begun doing

Also balancing funding and mandating funding ratios between the DA office and public attorney office.

The courts are designed to be adversarial which is what differentiates America as a free state from a police state.


these are not people who have broken the law. these are people accused of breaking the law.

The Us districts also need to be examined and variances between US public defenders officers across the country should be adjusted to ensure all districts are meeting the needs of their constituency.


We still have plea bargaining, Jury selection and bail arraignment to cover.

This is all part of Due process.


@gourimoko, and I have discussed classism vs racism at length in these discussions

Most of my points are from a classism viewpoint. however many of these issues create a racial issues. so a lot of these things are intertwined.

A lot of these matter need to be addressed not just because they perpetuate racism but that they promote inequality. and addressing these matters remove barriers that a lot in the black demographics face on a daily basis.

some people take Jail terms as opposed to facing longer sentences against a jury that often has the defendants actual peers removed from consideration as a juror.

What we do have is a system that is supposed to make available Quality legal counsel for indigent defendants according to our constitution supported by multiple supreme court rulings on the matter.
Those parameters aren't being met
and this inequity heavily impacts a specific demographic of the population and perpetuates racism amongst the legal system and law enforcement once human nature is factored in.

I just want to point out that the Constitution says nothing about everyone having the right to have an attorney provided by the government. That's a Court-invented right from the Gideon case.

 

[Huber.]

BART takeover robbery: 40 to 60 teens swarm train, hold up riders

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php


Tis a sanctuary.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

BART takeover robbery: 40 to 60 teens swarm train, hold up riders

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php


Tis a sanctuary.

Preventing things like that is almost impossible -- even if you had a couple of cops right there, there's not much they can do except shoot if faced with 40-60 perpetrators acting en masse.

 

[Sebastian]

Oakland is still rough in many places. Oakland and SF are still very different places.

BART takeover robbery: 40 to 60 teens swarm train, hold up riders

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/BART-takeover-robbery-50-to-60-teens-swarm-11094745.php


Tis a sanctuary.

Oakland is still rough in many places. Oakland and SF are still very different places.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Holy Mother of God did reading that give me a headache. And that's just the first paragraph.

I think @Snarly has managed to do the impossible -- send alcohol through the internet. Reading one of his posts make you feel like you're drunk, and you get stuck with a bad hangover headache afterwards.

That sounds like a billion dollar idea.

 

[Tornicade]

I just want to point out that the Constitution says nothing about everyone having the right to have an attorney provided by the government. That's a Court-invented right from the Gideon case.

Thanks for pointing out what I already pointed out. However by the same token nowhere does it say the Taxpayer should pay for government prosecutions.
However what was these court decisions based on.. 3 out 4 cases I cited with a high majority of the justices agreeing.

I am not sure how you can provide due process to all citizens equally by denying them the right of counsel based on indigency. .
Everyone has a right to an legal counsel. Everyone has a right to due process. You cannot have due process if you don't allow counsel due to the defendant lacking funds.

If one pays taxes to prosecute potential criminals one can and also should pay taxes for those accused to defend themselves.

I don't see how that is remotely true. Society consists of individuals, and the actions of every individual always has some effect. When enough individuals act, the change throughout a society becomes more apparent on a larger scale, but the individual acts still have an impact on their own.

And that's actually a different point from the one you made. A single person who looks on everything at the individual level can have enormous societal impact if they disseminate their views widely, or see them enacted into legislation, etc..

For example, it's worthwhile pointing out that most of our anti-discrimination laws are premised on that same concept -- that each individual must be evaluated as such without regard to their race, gender, etc.. And certainly, those laws have had an enormous impact.

You've taken this out of context. and In context it is clear that none of your scenarios are applicable.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Thanks for pointing out what I already pointed out. However by the same token nowhere does it say the Taxpayer should pay for government prosecutions.

Different issue. Paying for prosecutions is not an individual right. It is a governmental power implied under Article III and the Necessary and Proper clause. And the entire common law history includes government prosecutors, so it was something that was clearly understood by everyone at the founding of the Constitution. That's not true with respect to government-provided counsel.

I am not sure how you can provide due process to all citizens equally by denying them the right of counsel based on indigency....If one pays taxes to prosecute potential criminals one can and also should pay taxes for those accused to defend themselves.

I don't disagree with that as a matter of policy. But defense counsel paid for by the government was not part of the common law, nor was it the practice in this country for our first 175 years of existence. So I'm not questioning whether or not it is a good idea. I was just pointing out that it was not considered a Constitutional right by the Framers, and was only made such comparatively recently. But that's really more an academic point than anything else -- I think it is a good idea, personally.

You've taken this out of context. and In context it is clear that none of your scenarios are applicable.

Then I have absolutely no idea what you meant when you said this:

One certainly can have no impact on societal issues if they look upon everything on an individual level.

Can you explain the context in which you meant that?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

The system is the system.

To what "system" are you referring? Because to me, the belief that these racial issues all flow from "systemic" problems is simply wrong. Or certainly, the particular "system" being discussed at a given point in time needs to be identified more clearly to ensure there actually is "a system" at all. Too often, I think "systemic" is used as a euphemism for "widespread", but those are not the same thing.

A "systemic" problem logically would have a "systemic" solution. So, when you had Jim Crow laws, you truly had a "systemic" problem that could be fixed by a discrete action -- passage of legislation to eliminate such laws. I'd agree that some of the issues discussed in here also have "systemic" aspects to them. Financing/control of schools largely at the local level is a "systemic" issue. Laws that treat crack differently from cocaine, or that criminalize marijuana use are "systemic" issues.

But in terms of police...I just don't see how, in general, the problem is "systemic". There are over 18,000 different law enforcement agencies in this country at the federal, state, and local level, each of which has a great deal of authority to set its own policies and training requirements, have its own hiring/disciplinary authority, etc.. Some departments are much better or worse than others. In other words, to a large extent, there isn't "a" system at all. There are 18,000 different systems.

I'd say that the strongest "systemic" commonality is that those law enforcement agencies are all staffed by human beings, and that those human beings on an individual level may have their own issues that make them poor policemen. But Robocop aside, I don't really see a "systemic" solution to that "problem". because the truth is that a great many law enforcement agencies, especially the larger ones, already have been desperately trying to find the right kind of training and screening to eliminate bad cops. It's just not that easy.

 

[David.]

To what "system" are you referring? Because to me, the belief that these racial issues all flow from "systemic" problems is simply wrong. Or certainly, the particular "system" being discussed at a given point in time needs to be identified more clearly to ensure there actually is "a system" at all. Too often, I think "systemic" is used as a euphemism for "widespread", but those are not the same thing.

A "systemic" problem logically would have a "systemic" solution. So, when you had Jim Crow laws, you truly had a "systemic" problem that could be fixed by a discrete action -- passage of legislation to eliminate such laws. I'd agree that some of the issues discussed in here also have "systemic" aspects to them. Financing/control of schools largely at the local level is a "systemic" issue. Laws that treat crack differently from cocaine, or that criminalize marijuana use are "systemic" issues.

But in terms of police...I just don't see how that, in general, the problem is "systemic". There are over 18,000 different law enforcement agencies in this country at the federal, state, and local level, each of which has a great deal of authority to set its own policies and training requirements, have its own hiring/disciplinary authority, etc.. Some departments are much better or worse than others. In other words, to a large extent, there isn't "a" system at all. There are 18,000 different systems.

I'd say that the strongest "systemic" commonality is that those law enforcement agencies are all staffed by human beings, and that those human beings on an individual level may have their own issues that make them poor policemen. But Robocop aside, I don't really see a "systemic" solution to that "problem". because the truth is that a great many law enforcement agencies, especially the larger ones, already have been desperately trying to find the right kind of training and screening to eliminate bad cops. It's just not that easy.

I dont believe theres any system in place to specifically target people of color.

There is obviously racism today, but its not systemic. There are individual racists. But the laws and systems arent racist, with the exception that biased people hire people to whom theyre biased towards, likely, but i havent looked at any data that supports that and i havent looked at any data that says you can fix that (Ive seen the opposite) and i havent looked at any data that says cleansing the minds of our citizens is a good thing.

Im saying "the system is the system" as in its a system designed to protect the country and its citizens and there's some things they get wrong but the preponderance of what they do is right, and the law isnt open to interpretation.

The only thing id really like to look at is how we treat convicts (is prison effective, and i doubt it. Ive looked at that data) legalizing drugs and readdressing sentencing.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I dont believe theres any system in place to specifically target people of color.

There is obviously racism today, but its not systemic. There are individual racists. But the laws and systems arent racist, with the exception that biased people hire people to whom theyre biased towards, likely, but i havent looked at any data that supports that and i havent looked at any data that says you can fix that (Ive seen the opposite) and i havent looked at any data that says cleansing the minds of our citizens is a good thing.

Im saying "the system is the system" as in its a system designed to protect the country and its citizens and there's some things they get wrong but the preponderance of what they do is right, and the law isnt open to interpretation.

The only thing id really like to look at is how we treat convicts (is prison effective, and i doubt it. Ive looked at that data) legalizing drugs and readdressing sentencing.

Got it -- I generally agree. As I said, though, there are some things that you can legitimately refer to as systemic. When you can identify a specific policy, then sure. I'm sure some people would talk about the economic system as a whole -- a capitalistic/mixed economy - as a "system", and I think that's fair. But when you start getting into that, then you're really going beyond race because it's not race-specific.