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Chief Wahoo Discussion

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Should Chief Wahoo Go?


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Cratylus, I owned Indians gear as a kid and even then found it odd and strange.. I stopped wearing Chief Wahoo as a very young teenager and no one in my household did either.

I would never, no matter what, buy Chief Wahoo gear at this stage in my life and that's been the case for several decades now.

I find the logo offensive... I'm not sure why you think people shouldn't get offended by things that you don't happen to be offended by, or why one would be offended by others who get offended... It's a strange reaction in my opinion.

Also.... why are you going after "libs" and "democrats" so often recently? Is this really a partisan issue? I mean there's quite a few liberals in this thread supporting the logo, right?

I think @The Oi noticed this too, but it's rather reactionary to call out "libs" in this case don't you think?

I'm just asking, not trying to stoke.. Would you then say that Akronite is off-base by declaring that it's white people and, more specifically, white conservatives who are the people fighting to keep the logo?
 
I'm just asking, not trying to stoke.. Would you then say that Akronite is off-base by declaring that it's white people and, more specifically, white conservatives who are the people fighting to keep the logo?

Umm... I dunno, I honestly haven't given that much thought.. I don't think it's conservatives in general though; I'm quite sure it's not a partisan issue. Although there is definitely some truth in that conservatives and right-wingers are generally far less receptive to issues of racial sensitivity (i.e., the war against "political correctness" is a thing that's almost entirely on the right).

But I do think @Akronite 's point about racial outlook on this is valid. If you're White, you have a different worldview with respect racial issues than someone who is Black. And with that said, other minorities like Asians, Latinos, and yes, Native Americans, are somewhere between Blacks and Whites on this spectrum of racial sensitivity. From the sociological studies I've read, this generally is a result of various ethnic groups ability to both assimilate, enculturate, adopt, and even mimmick the normative culture/ethnicity -- or in other words, both the willingness and the ability for a particular culture/ethnicity/race to both assimilate and either pass or be accepted for Whites or by Whites.

This gets into a long longer conversation about the interaction of various cultures, racism, colorism, etc; which is mostly beyond the scope of this conversation. However, @Akronite 's point is likely valid along these lines.
 
Umm... I dunno, I honestly haven't given that much thought.. I don't think it's conservatives in general though; I'm quite sure it's not a partisan issue. Although there is definitely some truth in that conservatives and right-wingers are generally far less receptive to issues of racial sensitivity (i.e., the war against "political correctness" is a thing that's almost entirely on the right).


Absolutely agree.

But I do think @Akronite 's point about racial outlook on this is valid. If you're White, you have a different worldview with respect racial issues than someone who is Black. And with that said, other minorities like Asians, Latinos, and yes, Native Americans, are somewhere between Blacks and Whites on this spectrum of racial sensitivity. From the sociological studies I've read, this generally is a result of various ethnic groups ability to both assimilate, enculturate, adopt, and even mimmick the normative culture/ethnicity -- or in other words, both the willingness and the ability for a particular culture/ethnicity/race to both assimilate and either pass or be accepted for Whites or by Whites.

This gets into a long longer conversation about the interaction of various cultures, racism, colorism, etc; which is mostly beyond the scope of this conversation. However, @Akronite 's point is likely valid along these lines.

I also absolutely agree with the bolded part of this excerpt. Where I'm having a hard-time, and the answer could be complexly found down the longer conversation you cited, is that this POV is a white people issue on it's face. While cultural assimilation could band Indians fans who love the Chief together, regardless of race, I fail to see that this is merely an outlook forced by white people.. I mean, I went to Game 1 (on the same night as the Cavs' opener) and saw a lot of diverse folks wearing the Chief and even some people selling a Chief with "LeBron characteristics" who were black. Does the racial sensitivity aspect you brought up come into play? I'm sure over time it does. Does that mean that it's safe to assume that the Chief is supported mostly by people who act white? I would say it isn't true and may serve one's bias.. Some of those vendors I know & I've seen while at community rallies in Cleveland centered around injustice.
 


Absolutely agree.

I also absolutely agree with the bolded part of this excerpt. Where I'm having a hard-time, and the answer could be complexly found down the longer conversation you cited, is that this POV is a white people issue on it's face. While cultural assimilation could band Indians fans who love the Chief together, regardless of race, I fail to see that this is merely an outlook forced by white people.. I mean, I went to Game 1 (on the same night as the Cavs' opener) and saw a lot of diverse folks wearing the Chief and even some people selling a Chief with "LeBron characteristics" who were black. Does the racial sensitivity aspect you brought up come into play? I'm sure over time it does. Does that mean that it's safe to assume that the Chief is supported mostly by people who act white? I would say it isn't true and may serve one's bias.. Some of those vendors I know & I've seen while at community rallies in Cleveland centered around injustice.

I'm not suggesting this is a "White issue," I don't even think such a thing exists. We all form our shared culture, so these are issues for all of us. But various groups within our larger culture react differently.

Blacks will tend to be more receptive to topics of racial sensitivity than Whites; this is just a statistical observation, but in that, I think it's empirically true. This doesn't mean they're genetically predisposed to being this way, obviously; but what it means is that the normative culture/ethnicity is less prone/receptive to arguments challenging the status quo.

So while you'll see tons of African-Americans wearing Chief Wahoo, because it isn't Chief Sambo; if you presented the arguement to a group of Blacks and a group of Whites, you could be fairly confident to get a more receptive audience for change among the African-Americans.

This is also evidenced by the partisan/ideological aspect of this conversation, which brings us back to Akronite's point about conservatives.

A group of 100 Black people will only have, maybe, 8-10 conservatives. Whereas a group of 100 White people will generally have about 60 conservatives. And while there are plenty of liberals who are fine with Chief Wahoo; liberals are more receptive, as we stated above, to the idea -- particularly those who live outside of Cleveland or aren't originally from the area.

So again... Akronite's point, along these lines, is generally sound; although I wouldn't put it in terms of race and ideology... That is to say, White people are not genetically predisposed to feeling a particular way about Chief Wahoo... lol.. But instead, that the normative culture in Cleveland is likely resistant to change, and those folks just happen to be White by happenstance. There is a fundamental difference here, but perhaps I'm not articulating it well.
 
Just a quick $0.02

srsly, It's time has come and gone, We really should look into retiring Chief Wahoo at the very least, We should look into renaming the team tbh

Washington Redskins are becoming the Washington Warriors.
Chicago Blackhawks are changing logos
Atlanta Braves have toned down the image

It's nearly 2017, It's a new day.
 
Just a quick $0.02

srsly, It's time has come and gone, We really should look into retiring Chief Wahoo at the very least, We should look into renaming the team tbh

Washington Redskins are becoming the Washington Warriors.
Chicago Blackhawks are changing logos
Atlanta Braves have toned down the image

It's nearly 2017, It's a new day.

I thought at first that this was a consensus. I'm seeing over the past few pages that we're not at the point where we can all say, "yes, regardless of intent, the logo is racially insensitive." I find that a bit surprising. I do think there's a lot of cloudiness due to emotional attachment that may be precipitating that POV, but it's not one I agree with personally.
 
I thought at first that this was a consensus. I'm seeing over the past few pages that we're not at the point where we can all say, "yes, regardless of intent, the logo is racially insensitive." I find that a bit surprising. I do think there's a lot of cloudiness due to emotional attachment that may be precipitating that POV, but it's not one I agree with personally.

These types of issues should never be left to popular opinion though. That's part of the problem.
 
Just a quick $0.02

srsly, It's time has come and gone, We really should look into retiring Chief Wahoo at the very least, We should look into renaming the team tbh

Washington Redskins are becoming the Washington Warriors.
Chicago Blackhawks are changing logos
Atlanta Braves have toned down the image

It's nearly 2017, It's a new day.

Redskins are not becoming th Warriors. The Blackhawks are also not changing logos.

Completely false claims.
 
Redskins are not becoming th Warriors. The Blackhawks are also not changing logos.

Completely false claims.

He also said he stopped watching the Indians after they broke up the team following the 97 world series loss when it wasn't really broken up obviously until 2002. He is a subtle troll. Very rare!
 
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I enjoy gouri having me on ignore. I can make a point and have him prove it true without him couching to prove me wrong.

There was black male in my office today he said he knew some injuns in Colorado and keep them away from alcohol.

What akronite said essentially comes to white people stole somoen elses culture and white people have no right to depict anything other than white people.

whats more segregationist than that.

but oh yeah good to know Gouri sees those views as valid whereas a debateable topic on the definition of genocide. doesn't merit respect.

or that the slave owning Native americans who spent thousands of years trying to wipe each toher out before Eurpean barbarism came to America might have takne actions that cause the US government to adapt a reloction policy for the safety of its citizens and that many "white" people were just as outraged by some of the actions taken by some of their own in the first war against terrorism. an Activity that native americans consistently engaged in .

Why do I bring this up? cause this is the mindset of the people in regards to native americans going into the 1900's .

Cleveland instead chose a logo and mascot out of respect and primarily a marketing gimmick used by boston that was successful at that time.


.
 
Just a quick $0.02

srsly, It's time has come and gone, We really should look into retiring Chief Wahoo at the very least, We should look into renaming the team tbh

Washington Redskins are becoming the Washington Warriors.
Chicago Blackhawks are changing logos
Atlanta Braves have toned down the image

It's nearly 2017, It's a new day.

I think, win or lose, this can be the end of Chief Wahoo. If we win, we can turn the page. If we lose, he must be sacrificed, as a vestige of The Curse. As I've said, I think we should go back to Spiders. The logo possibilities are various and gnarly. I don't sport Chief Wahoo anymore; I roll with the 70s Rico Carty crooked C.
 
I see an opportunity to go with the greatest mascot of all time.

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I found out recently from my father that I indeed have Native American blood in me.

So i'm going to proudly rock Chief Wahoo now and no one can say shit.
 
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