Chief Wahoo Discussion

[Ohio]

Although the ring will have Wahoo.

Not if the logo was already removed, which is the scenario @The Wizard of Moz was talking about

 

[The Oi]

Cleveland 2nd Amendment People?

 

[Chris]

Not if the logo was already removed, which is the scenario @The Wizard of Moz was talking about

My post was facetious.

 

[macbdog]

What if visiting players started kneeling during the National Anthem to protest Chief Wahoo? What if Indians players did this? What if people attending games who have a conscience did this?

 

[DonGilbert]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already but why not actually honor them by correcting our team name?

The Cleveland Natives isn't that bad and it has a second meaning as a citizen born in Cleveland. Toughen up the logo and this could be a great solution.

Edit: Why not adapt rather than try to rid history of them completely... again.

 

[Selby]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already but why not actually honor them by correcting our team name?

The Cleveland Natives isn't that bad and it has a second meaning as a citizen born in Cleveland. Toughen up the logo and this could be a great solution.

Edit: Why not adapt rather than try to rid history of them completely... again.

Many prefer the term "American Indian" over "Native American" though. So calling the team the Natives wouldn't fix anything, it would still be offensive to many.

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nc-american-indians/5526

"according to a 1995 census survey, 49.76 percent of American Indians preferred that term, compared to 37.35 percent preferring Native American and much smaller numbers preferring other terms."

 

[DonGilbert]

Many prefer the term "American Indian" over "Native American" though. So calling the team the Natives wouldn't fix anything, it would still be offensive to many.

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nc-american-indians/5526

"according to a 1995 census survey, 49.76 percent of American Indians preferred that term, compared to 37.35 percent preferring Native American and much smaller numbers preferring other terms."

I understand that "Native American" may be offensive to some, but the term "Native" by itself represents a different meaning. These were the Native people of the land, nothing offensive about that. If you add in "American", then you can argue that it was a term given to them based on the original colonization of "America", which absolutely could still be viewed as offensive.

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.c...r-american-indian-6-prominent-voices-respond/

The article above is from 2015 but it is written by Amanda Blackhorse, who helped strip the Washington Redskins of 6 trademarks in court. The author, and every single person interviewed, used the term "Native" in some way.

 

[Selby]

I understand that "Native American" may be offensive to some, but the term "Native" by itself represents a different meaning. These were the Native people of the land, nothing offensive about that. If you add in "American", then you can argue that it was a term given to them based on the original colonization of "America", which absolutely could still be viewed as offensive.

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.c...r-american-indian-6-prominent-voices-respond/

The article above is from 2015 but it is written by Amanda Blackhorse, who helped strip the Washington Redskins of 6 trademarks in court. The author, and every single person interviewed, used the term "Native" in some way.

I get what you're saying. But I'm not sure the Cleveland Natives would get a pass from some, especially if we still had a logo of an American Indian (or Native), no matter how "toughened up" we make it look.

If we are going to change the name and logo, we might as well go all the way and rid ourselves entirely of any American Indian/Native imagery and names. We can tiptoe that line of what may or may not be offensive, or we can just avoid it completely and go with a brand new identity.

 

[DonGilbert]

I get what you're saying. But I'm not sure the Cleveland Natives would get a pass from some, especially if we still had a logo of an American Indian (or Native), no matter how "toughened up" we make it look.

If we are going to change the name and logo, we might as well go all the way and rid ourselves entirely of any American Indian/Native imagery and names. We can tiptoe that line of what may or may not be offensive, or we can just avoid it completely and go with a brand new identity.

I just feel like we shouldn't scrap the Native American theme completely because there is history here in Cleveland with Louis Sockalexis. I also wouldn't care if we changed to the Spiders either. I just think the call to scrap any sybomlism of Native Americans just to be safe isn't a good enough reason. But I will admit, it's not my place to say what's right or wrong. I just added my idea because I felt that it was a change that would work for all crowds.

 

[MirORich]

Right. If we're lucky enough to win a World Series I'll be busy celebrating that. Won't have time to give a shit about people using Chief as a way to push their agenda.

<RG, I'm speaking to the general sentiment of the bolded sentence, not at you specifically>

It's so strange that that's the takeaway so many people seem have about this issue.

Is our desire as humans to stubbornly hold ground against what we perceive as the oppositions reasoning so powerful that it just overrides the simple obvious truth of the matter?

The name, there is room for healthy debate and perspectives of whether it's appropriate for a sports team name.

The logo is a disgusting racist caricature that has direct and factual connection to a disgusting history of treatment(which is putting it kindly) towards a continents worth of peoples here before European exploration/colonializaton. And not just 300 years ago. All throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th century.

No matter how many people one suppose are just attached to the fight to change the logo for misguided or "PC" reasons, it does not change that truth about the logo. So it strikes me as strange how many otherwise intelligent people would rather get caught up in the war of political ideology than simply acknowledging the clear and obvious truth about the logo.

 

[Ohio]

<RG, I'm speaking to the general sentiment of the bolded sentence, not at you specifically>

It's so strange that that's the takeaway so many people seem have about this issue.

Is our desire as humans to stubbornly hold ground against what we perceive as the oppositions reasoning so powerful that it just overrides the simple obvious truth of the matter?

The name, there is room for healthy debate and perspectives of whether it's appropriate for a sports team name.

The logo is a disgusting racist caricature that has direct and factual connection to a disgusting history of treatment(which is putting it kindly) towards a continents worth of peoples here before European exploration/colonializaton. And not just 300 years ago. All throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th century.

No matter how many people one suppose are just attached to the fight to change the logo for misguided or "PC" reasons, it does not change that truth about the logo. So it strikes me as strange how many otherwise intelligent people would rather get caught up in the war of political ideology than simply acknowledging to clear and obvious truth about the logo.

I think you may have misunderstood the context in which I was speaking.

If you read through the conversation, it was about the Indians removing Chief Wahoo, then winning the World Series, and having some people rub it in (so to speak) that it's because Chief Wahoo is gone, and that the Indians never won before because of the curse of Chief Wahoo. Which, obviously, is incredibly stupid. But people would absolutely do it, in a sort of "I told you so" agenda pushing type of way.

 

[MirORich]

I think you may have misunderstood the context in which I was speaking.

If you read through the conversation, it was about the Indians removing Chief Wahoo, then winning the World Series, and having some people rub it in (so to speak) that it's because Chief Wahoo is gone, and that the Indians never won before because of the curse of Chief Wahoo. Which, obviously, is incredibly stupid. But people would absolutely do it, in a sort of "I told you so" agenda pushing type of way.

Yeah I get you. Like I said, I was just using that one last sentence as a jumping off point. And I'm sure there are plenty here who didn't like or agree with my point.

 

[Ohio]

Yeah I get you. Like I said, I was just using that one last sentence as a jumping off point. And I'm sure there are plenty here who didn't like or agree with my point.

Right, I understand. I'm sure without understanding the context and just reading that sentence raw, it makes it seem like I'm saying anyone who is anti-Wahoo is pushing an agenda. That's obviously not the case. Although, I'm sure there are people who do feel that way, but I am not one of them.

 

[TopGun]

What if visiting players started kneeling during the National Anthem to protest Chief Wahoo? What if Indians players did this? What if people attending games who have a conscience did this?

We're talking Cleveland baseball, nobody actually attends the games.

 

[Steve_424]

I've said this before, but if they want to change the name the Cleveland Tribe works.

Tribe - a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.