Children

[Mr. Orange]

And you didn't understand my point.

What is the purpose of life, if not personal fulfillment and happiness? How is pursuing that somehow worthy of suspicion, or an inadequate reason to do something? Your formulation actually seems backwards to me -- I'd say that it is impossible to be a good parent unless it brings you personal fulfillment and happiness. It is too hard a job, and requires too many sacrifices, to do it for purely altruistic reasons for so long.

There is an inherent flaw to your logic, which would be if a parent gets personal fulfillment and happiness from drinking, gambling, and philandering.

And you again seem to miss the point. After you have kids, sure I get it, be the best parent you can be, but I am talking of the decision to create life, how many people that have children ask themselves if the children would like to be here, and have all the good and bad of life? Why is it such a flippant decision for most? I want kids. And there it is. But do kids want life? It's hard to answer unless we know what the opposite of life is. If you are religious, you have now created a human which may be damned to eternal suffering. Why would you take that gamble?

Maybe I should have titled this: "Creating life" or "Playing God" so that the parents would be less emotional about their decision to have kids. I still may have kids, I mean I want to, but then I ask...is that right?

 

[Hydroponic3385]

Consider adopting?

 

[Mr. Orange]

Consider adopting?

Sure, that is an option. But also most people just want little versions of them, and to signify the love with their partner.

Again, this topic was more to do with a philosophical debate, rather than tell people they should or shouldn't have kids. Even myself. I'd like a little flock, I would. But again, is that responsible? IDK, I never took a philosophy course so maybe this was covered and answered in intro.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

There is an inherent flaw to your logic, which would be if a parent gets personal fulfillment and happiness from drinking, gambling, and philandering.

Well, there's nothing inherently wrong about drinking or gambling, if not done to excess. And if you're philandering, that's affirmatively destructive of a family. That's not true of creating life, by definition. In any case, the other point you're making is where this really goes off the rails....

Look for all we know, not existing is eternal bliss. And with life comes suffering. And with life comes death. So if non-existence is nirvana and bliss, would it not be inhumane to create life? Assuming we knew this about non-existence? Would you still create?

What you've done here is create a factual predicate -- "not existing is eternal bliss"-- for which there exists absolutely no evidence of any kind. It would be just as easy to flip your example on its head and say "for all we know, not existing is eternal agony" because both are equally unknowable. It is utterly irrational to factor such unknowables into our decision-making when they are extreme, polar opposites. You have to make decisions on what is known, or reasonably ascertainable/likely/probable/possible. Your "for all we know" standard is circular, and therefore useless. It would be decision-making by coin flip. So, since we cannot possibly know or account for the preferences of those who do not yet exist, making decisions based on our own preferences is the most rational course of action.

Anything else sounds like the rantings of some tripped-out freshman philosophy professor trying to be profound.

 

[Otsego Mar]

I lot of your coworkers have troubled kids because, well, they themselves are troubled.

 

[el_capitan]

I'm about a week away from having my first child. I look forward to immediately asking them if they are angry at me for bringing them into the world.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Well, there's nothing inherently wrong about drinking or gambling, if not done to excess. And if you're philandering, that's affirmatively destructive of a family. That's not true of creating life, by definition. In any case, the other point you're making is where this really goes off the rails....



What you've done here is create a factual predicate -- "not existing is eternal bliss"-- for which there exists absolutely no evidence of any kind. It would be just as easy to flip your example on its head and say "for all we know, not existing is eternal agony" because both are equally unknowable. It is utterly irrational to factor such unknowables into our decision-making when they are extreme, polar opposites. You have to make decisions on what is known, or reasonably ascertainable/likely/probable/possible. Your "for all we know" standard is circular, and therefore useless. It would be decision-making by coin flip. So, since we cannot possibly know or account for the preferences of those who do not yet exist, making decisions based on our own preferences is the most rational course of action.

Anything else sounds like the rantings of some tripped-out freshman philosophy professor trying to be profound.

Not useless when it is just a discussion for fun on an internet forum. The theological and philosophical discussion in this thread got lost by the "I love my kids" crowd, which I assumed it would. And while I understand your point about eternal bliss or agony, since we will never know, it's not something to base a decision on, but rather a basis for philosophical conversation.

The big questions are hard and heavy, which is why it's easier not to discuss and think of. That's fine. Ignorance is bliss. It probably IS best just to pop out some young ones, take them to soccer, ask for grandkids, and be fulfilled, cycle of unfullfillment be damned.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Not useless when it is just a discussion for fun on an internet forum. The theological and philosophical discussion in this thread got lost by the "I love my kids" crowd, which I assumed it would. And while I understand your point about eternal bliss or agony, since we will never know, it's not something to base a decision on, but rather a basis for philosophical conversation.

But...how? Where is the philosophical depth to a conversation that amount to complete guessing about the unknowable? We're not talking about informed speculation, or some kind of logical analysis that might lead to conclusions of different possibilities. It's just unbounded, unknowable, pure speculation. It's utterly pointless even as a thought exercise because it leads absolutely nowhere.

The big questions are hard and heavy, which is why it's easier not to discuss and think of. That's fine. Ignorance is bliss.

You know, the one thing I have learned from his discussion is that we really should stop subsidizing higher education.

 

[Whittaker]

You know, the one thing I have learned from his discussion is that we really should stop subsidizing higher education.

Or maybe stop subsidizing what is being passed off as higher education.

 

[boxxer]

Kids are definitely not for everyone and I completely understand those who do not want to have or raise kids.
The first 4-5 years are a shit load of work and they are generally assholes once they start talking. However, it gets easier and once they start wiping their own ass and doing things on their own it makes life a lot easier. I have to boys ages 7 and 8. My only regret is not having another child!
If your worried about being able to do all the things you used to...you're right...you can't. We used to go to Hawaii every other year and travel like crazy...now, we take one good vacation a year, then a couple smaller cheaper trips since the big ones cost twice as much.
However the rewarding aspects of raising children far out way the negatives...Watching my boys play travel ball and line a double down the third base line...nothing beats it. Their pride when they come home with a good report card or when they beat me in mariokart (which doesn't happen often). Hell, just quietly reading with them in the evening beats the alternative of going to the bar with friends or watching tv by myself.
There has always been shit going on in the world, but I would be the selfish one if I decided the world was just to shitty to have kids instead of giving them the opportunity to make it a better world for themselves.
If you are not committed to the process however, please do everyone a favor and don't have them...the world is full of children who never had a chance because their parents didn't give them one.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

 

[Mr. Orange]

But...how? Where is the philosophical depth to a conversation that amount to complete guessing about the unknowable? We're not talking about informed speculation, or some kind of logical analysis that might lead to conclusions of different possibilities. It's just unbounded, unknowable, pure speculation. It's utterly pointless even as a thought exercise because it leads absolutely nowhere.



You know, the one thing I have learned from his discussion is that we really should stop subsidizing higher education.

I don't know what you are doing here, but let's just say we are not on the same wavelength on the topic, and it doesn't seem you are very interested in this conversation, so we can stop wasting each other's time responding. I'm happy with the discourse I had with Keys, so I'll wish the rest of you well if you would like to continue the topic. I'm good from my side.

Anytime someone resorts to things like "tripped out freshman" and Jack Handy quotes, and "waste of higher education" it's clear they are not interested in a discussion, nor do they want to respect the other party.

 

[Whittaker]

Kids are definitely not for everyone and I completely understand those who do not want to have or raise kids.
The first 4-5 years are a shit load of work and they are generally assholes once they start talking. However, it gets easier and once they start wiping their own ass and doing things on their own it makes life a lot easier. I have to boys ages 7 and 8. My only regret is not having another child!
If your worried about being able to do all the things you used to...you're right...you can't. We used to go to Hawaii every other year and travel like crazy...now, we take one good vacation a year, then a couple smaller cheaper trips since the big ones cost twice as much.
However the rewarding aspects of raising children far out way the negatives...Watching my boys play travel ball and line a double down the third base line...nothing beats it. Their pride when they come home with a good report card or when they beat me in mariokart (which doesn't happen often). Hell, just quietly reading with them in the evening beats the alternative of going to the bar with friends or watching tv by myself.
There has always been shit going on in the world, but I would be the selfish one if I decided the world was just to shitty to have kids instead of giving them the opportunity to make it a better world for themselves.
If you are not committed to the process however, please do everyone a favor and don't have them...the world is full of children who never had a chance because their parents didn't give them one.

I was thinking on writing a post with most of these same thoughts.
But I can't do better than this!(especially the last paragraph)
Bravo.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't know what you are doing here, but let's just say we are not on the same wavelength on the topic, and it doesn't seem you are very interested in this conversation, so we can stop wasting each other's time responding. I'm happy with the discourse I had with Keys, so I'll wish the rest of you well if you would like to continue the topic. I'm good from my side.

Anytime someone resorts to things like "tripped out freshman" and Jack Handy quotes, and "waste of higher education" it's clear they are not interested in a discussion, nor do they want to respect the other party.

I oppose like nihilism, and speak out against it when I get the chance because it deserves opposition.

Tough noogies.

 

[Mr. Orange]

I oppose like nihilism, and speak out against it when I get the chance because it deserves opposition.

Tough noogies.

That's fine, but you don't have to be a dick about it. Your posts were interesting until you started belittling for what reason I am not sure.