David Blatt v. Tyronn Lue

[blommen]

Yeah let's just agree to the fact that Blatt was a good coach who got more than he bargained for and was put in a tough spot to succeed, and he didn't react very well to the situation, which led to him being fired and replaced by another very good coach who had a different set of skills which proved more suited for the job at hand.

 

[MirORich]

I respect both sides of the argument and there is enough anecdotal and results evidence from the 18 months Blatt was here to make a solid case in either direction.

My point is "who the f*ck cares"

It just doesn't matter. Ty Lue is the coach, he did a great job, and the team won a championship.

Anything else is pure speculation and guesswork. It doesn't invalidate that speculation and opinion, but to me, it just doesn't matter. There were things I liked about Blatt and things I didn't.
But ultimately, it's only about one thing. Winning a championship. Whatever means to and end achieves that, so be it.

As for Ty Lue. Love the guy. Love his connection with the players. Love that he does not back down. Love the way he continued to support and prod Love to try and get the best out of him. Love his Ty Lue Potty Mouth and the weirdness of the fact that the guy has never had a drink or smoked a cigarette in his entire life. Love his basketball pedigree, both as a player and as an ass't coach.

There are many ways to get things done. Many ways to approach a job. Many ways to communicate and use the English language. But the ultimate thing is the end result we pursue and in the NBA that is the Larry O'Brien trophy.

So to me, any coach that can steward a team for only half a year, with no training camp, down 3-1 to the champs who just happened to have the best record of all time, any coach who can help guide that process through to a championship us a legend.

Ty Lue is a legend to me already. I want this dude to be our coach for the next 5-10 years. And what other coaches may or may not have done in the same circumstances or if given more rope, just doesn't matter to me anymore.

Edit: this is all just my own take on it. I'm not trying to discourage or criticize conversation on the short Blatt era, although I do think that should be moved to wherever his thread has gone.

 

[ACisKING]

Pretty sure Cavatt was referring to cavs coaches. Which admittedly isn't a very elite club but still.

Oh got it - in that case I apologize.

 

[Cavatt]

Dude, he keeps saying that Blatt is a good coach. I don't think you're reading his argument correctly. He does think Blatt was a good coach, just not the right coach for this team, this argument is getting tedious.

Also, CP noted the media bias, sure, but he also noted that the narrative was not entirely false. I think saying that the reason Blatt got fired is because he was white is just as, if not more disingenuous than saying Blatt got fired because he was a bad coach. Blatt is a good coach, an unbelievable international coach, and anyone who said he was an unsuccessful coach at the NBA level is full of shit. Equally important, though, Lue is a good coach, the team gelled more with him at the helm, and was not hired solely because he was black.

One of the things I've learned from being a grad. student is that every source is biased, but as long as it's not a lie (something nobody has said about the narrative regarding Blatt), then it's the job of a researcher to find the kernel of truth. That's what Gour, myself, and others on here have tried to do regarding this firing.

Uh actually he has taken everything that Blatt did and said he accomplished nothing. He said that straight up.

Gouri has the same issue that the reporters had last year. He thinks Blatt's accomplishments are nothing. He can't agree to disagree. I happen to think Blatt's tenure was sabotaged. Lue hasn't had 1/100th of the scrutiny and the team was on his side before Day 1. Blatt did not enjoy such luxuries.

He doesn't understand why people still stand up for Blatt who has the best winning percentage of any cavs coach ever and only 2 less playoff wins than Lue. A guy who got fired when he was missing his 2nd best player and still had a better record than the previous year. That's what Gouri doesn't understand.

I am glad you "researchers" are on the case, but I think you may have bought the official story a little too easily. There were other facets here that have been completely ignored, in fact primary sources. As a Cleveland fan, surely your distrust of the media should be pretty high, but them rewriting the same story over and over about a guy they don't get along with? No agenda there? I listen to all the post game interviews and then I read the stories they write form those interviews. There is a lot that they feel free to interpret. It's nothing new.

People who think this is tedious are directing their Ire in the wrong direction. Gouri gets into these off-topic debates daily. It happens pretty rarely with me, because I honestly am not afraid of having a dissenting opinion and am not here to win anyone over. My whole point was to explain why some of us liked Blatt. That's all.

 

[Cavatt]

Oh got it - in that case I apologize.

Not a problem, I could have been more clear, but Cavs coach was what I meant. Cleveland has no shot at any of those other guys lol.

 

[Jordan]

Uh actually he has taken everything that Blatt did and said he accomplished nothing. He said that straight up.

Gouri has the same issue that the reporters had last year. He thinks Blatt's accomplishments are nothing. He can't agree to disagree. I happen to think Blatt's tenure was sabotaged. Lue hasn't had 1/100th of the scrutiny and the team was on his side before Day 1. Blatt did not enjoy such luxuries.

He doesn't understand why people still stand up for Blatt who has the best winning percentage of any cavs coach ever and only 2 less playoff wins than Lue. A guy who got fired when he was missing his 2nd best player and still had a better record than the previous year. That's what Gouri doesn't understand.

Please read his comments here. I really think you misunderstand Gour's position.

It's like, I have to constantly say that I think Blatt is a great coach, or else.. Yes I wanted him hired over Lue, I was excited he was the coach. I never wanted him fired, and argued against it the day of. It wasn't until I heard Griffin's press conference, read the media reports, and saw how the players reacted that I realized it was the right decision.

But in this post, you're misstating my position and also calling me a "hater." So you're kind of dragging me into bashing the guy, when my point is that he doesn't deserve anywhere near the same level of credit as Ty Lue, and you do a disservice to Lue by equating the two. Lue is the superior coach on this team; period.

Gour liked Blatt, didn't want him fired, and thinks he his a good coach.

I am glad you "researchers" are on the case, but I think you may have bought the official story a little too easily. There were other facets here that have been completely ignored, in fact primary sources. As a Cleveland fan, surely your distrust of the media should be pretty high, but them rewriting the same story over and over about a guy they don't get along with? No agenda there? I listen to all the post game interviews and then I read the stories they write form those interviews. There is a lot that they feel free to interpret. It's nothing new.

People who think this is tedious are directing their Ire in the wrong direction. Gouri gets into these off-topic debates daily. It happens pretty rarely with me, because I honestly am not afraid of having a dissenting opinion and am not here to win anyone over. My whole point was to explain why some of us liked Blatt. That's all.

Dude, just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we are blindly accepting the media narrative. Windy, McMenamin, Lloyd, Haynes, Vescey, Kyler, Pluto, and Vardon all had the same story. @Chris Parker even affirmed that most of the story was right, however, he noted that LeBron probably deserved more of the blame than others did. This was latter proved true as it was accepted into the mainstream. Literally the only journalist who thinks it's because LeBron wanted a black coach was Woj. He was the only one. But guess what? LeBron could have had other reasons for disliking Blatt that weren't race based.

Frankly, the racism argument is the same essentialist bullshit that people used to make simple culture arguments, such as: Muslims hate the U.S., Persons of color are dumber than white people, baseball/hockey are white sports because managers don't recruit other races, etc. Race is an easy thing to point to because it is devoid of thinking and simplifies emotions.

Dude, I really like you, and I think your argument about Blatt being a good coach is 100% true. I disagree with you thinking Blatt > Lue, however, I think your rationale makes perfect sense. But saying he got fired solely because LeBron, and LeBron only, didn't want Blatt as the coach - mainly because Blatt was white - is just wrong. It's not supported by facts.

 

[gourimoko]

We got confirmation that Lebron wanted Blatt gone from day 1.

But this isn't a point of contention in this conversation, is it?

We got confirmation that Lebron scrapped the offense and Mike Miller said "They didn't have the personnel to run it." after he said it was borderline genius.

If we didn't have the personnel to run it, why does it take James to scrap it? Again, what point are you making?

We got the confirmation that Lebron wanted a coach that had been in the NBA

In Year 1, yes. In Year 2?

and preferably one that was african american.

That's bullshit... and we never got any confirmation from anybody that this was the case.. Stop.

If you ask me, Blatt wasn't on time because he knew his days were numbered.

So you excuse him being late for work and holding up the players and team?

Dan Gilbert is investing nearly half a billion dollars over the course of this guy's contract and he can show up late to work and that's okay with you?

He couldn't fight the Biggest name in basketball.

According to who? Again, no one disputes this happened Year 1, you're conflating what happened prior to Griffin press conference 2014-15 and Griffin press conference 2015-16. Is this confusion purposeful? Seems intellectually dishonest to ignore how much James' approach changed between the Finals last season and January of 2016.

He tried, but he couldn't do it. If you have ever been put in a position where it has been made impossible to do your job, you don't bust your ass to get everything done on time.

I have never, in my life, decided to take a paycheck and slack off on the job, deliberately showing up late, and not doing what I was supposed to do. I give it my all, or I walk.

He could've quit. He didn't. He cashed his paycheck. You're excusing his performance because you're creating a narrative that James was, this year, preventing him from doing his job. I find that logic to be reliant on a remarkable degree of speculation; speculation in the face of a wide swath of media reports.

You think if Lue were in charge the Cavs would have won in 2015.

Yes, but I don't blame Blatt for losing the Finals; this seems like a strawman argument on your part.

That is absurd.

Is it? First off, I disagree that it's absurd, secondly I do not think the Cavs would've surely won; third, this hasn't anything to do with why he was fired.

That team was gassed and running on fumes by game 4. I knew they had given it their best shot by then.

I think Lue would've gone a bit deeper into the rotation and given James at least a few minutes of rest. I think Lue demonstrated he knows what he's doing, which is more than I can say for David Blatt on the Cavs even if I do concede he was a good coach overseas and likely will be in Turkey.

We know the Cavs badmouth coaches and players on their way out. There is a pattern here.

So, all of the reporters are lying?

Who is your source for information then? Yourself?

I said that moving to coach Lue was the right decision, but to me it doesn't mean Blatt is a bad coach.

But I've not said he was a bad coach; I've said he was a bad coach for this team.

Blatt, in the NBA, needs to be a developmental coach, a coach on a team full of rookies; like in Boston.

I think you do yourself a disservice (and a disservice to James, Lue, and Griffin) by ignoring the fact that it was the veterans who wanted Blatt gone; not simply James.

He could have very well had the same success this year with a better roster, we do not know.

I somehow doubt that, but, we don't really know so why offer this as evidence to your claim? It's irrational. What we do know is that, operationally, within his role as coach, he was not performing his job. You can blame whoever you want, but that's the bottom line.

I love Lue, man. He is great and he fucking delivered in his rookie year. It is impressive. His team was 2x or more better than the team Blatt rolled into the finals with.

Blatt didn't get fired after the Finals...

Somehow you seem to miss this?? If anything, the Cavs winning those two games allowed him to keep his job until late January.

It's something personal with you.

Oh wow...

So again, you attack me personally because of my argument? Now, I must have a personal hangup with David Blatt? What might that be? Fill me in on your suspicions.. I'm curious...

i don't know why you are so in lockstep with this narrative.

Because it's fact-based?

What narrative should I listen to? Yours? Why? I'm asking you, and have continued to ask you, to explain to me why your picture of the world is correct and mine is incorrect; because it would seem the preponderance of evidence is squarely against you. Do you honestly disagree?

Simply put; within the scope of your conclusions, what is actually based in anything that can be related back to more than a single named source, including a journalist?

Or do you acknowledge that you are not making a rational argument and are just speaking on supposition?

Chris Parker has said that the media had a bias against Blatt because their rapport was strained.

But, I haven't disregarded his commentary. I'm well aware of what he thinks.
He and I discussed this in the Lloyd thread, along with the admin of the site who voiced his opinion as well.

So with respect to Chris, I've said almost every single reporter who wrote a story on the subject said xyz. @jking went insofar as to enumerate them for you; yet you've disregarded that to pick and choose what narrative you will choose to believe.

I, however, have decided to weigh everything in proportion.

Who is being more rational in this instance? Who is demonstrative of prejudice and bias? Me or you?

So with that said, I'll put it more simply, either you believe there was/is some grand conspiracy against David Blatt, or, you accept that he wasn't very good in his role here as coach.

It seems like you'd prefer to believe in conspiracy theories.

He has stated that it wasn't the entire locker room against Blatt.

I'm sure it wasn't all 15 players. More like 12. Does that make a difference for you.. or..?

We had JR and others sing his praises.

So..? So you're saying that meant JR didn't agree with the consensus decision that he should be let go..? Windhorst and McMenamin stated that there was no veteran on the team that felt that way; so are they both lying?

I could understand if it was just Windhorst; but McMenamin too huh?

Max told us that Lebron wanted someone else.

So..?

Does that mean LeBron got Blatt fired in January of 2016, or that he wanted someone else in December of 2014?

Again, you're conflating things.

When I get primary sources I disregard official press releases and bullshit cover stories.

What are your primary sources?

Chris Parker is the press and, again with respect, has less team access than Dave McMenamin. Why not listen to both and weigh the evidence accordingly?

You've also discounted another insider on this board that didn't agree with your interpretation of things, at all. Why? My guess is you'd prefer to go with a snap judgement from an insider on the hour of Blatt's firing where everyone was in shock. And it's not like he wrote some detailed post with 15 paragraphs, he made a comment -- you decided to read whatever you would into it.

Now, six months later, looking back, we have a great deal more information. Yet you'd prefer to ignore it... why?

There is more to this story than Blatt is a bad coach, and I don't think we will ever know what it was.

Why are all the media reporters wrong and you're right?

You think you know.

I think there is evidence to make an argument. I think the case is definitely tilted against the claims you're making.

I do not think you are open to hearing anything that might be contrary to your point of view.

Yet you are accusing me of bias?

This is your personal crusade, so have fun with it.

Why is it my "personal crusade?"

You act like I'm in here pulling a Birdie... When people bring him up, I comment on it.. I'm on record having said it shouldn't be discussed in this thread, yet it's my personal crusade. Is that how you get by in an argument?

Attack my motives, impugn my character, call me a mouthpiece, and then dismiss my claims outright because I surely must have secretly always had it out for him?

Even though I wanted him hired over Lue? (check the thread)
Even though I said "give the man a fucking chance" (check the thread)
Even though I said it was fucked up that we can't run his offense, that's why I wanted him hired? (check the thread)
Even though I went into how I went back and watched him coach in Europe on YouTube and thought this was a great pickup?
Even though I went in on LeBron for fucking with him in Year 1?
Even though I argued with numerous posters in the game threads that called for him to be fired?
Even though, after the Christmas game I didn't want him fired?
Even though after the MLK day game against the Spurs I didn't want him fired?
Even though, the day he got fired, I went in on David Griffin and LeBron?

All of this is document in these threads.. yet I have bias against him?

Get the fuck outta of here with that bullshit accusation.

I just liked coach Blatt, I liked the way he talked about basketball,

That's all the fuck you, or anyone else, has to say...

Just say that and be done with it.

I think he did an amazing job in the finals,

Ok.

and IMO he is the 2nd best coach of the last 20 years.

I mean... Mike Fratello, Lenny Wilkens, and Paul Silas; hell, you could make an argument (using your logic) for Mike Brown, and I'm sure many would.

But real talk, I don't care.. It's not worth arguing who is a better between those guys.. If it helps you sleep at night, have it at..

My problem with your argument:

1) It's not fact-based. And by "fact" I mean, it's not sourced. It's just narrative and speculation. You cite 1 reporter who is admittedly an outlier and is "pro-Blatt," which in itself would be fine, but you compound this by #2.

2) You ignore every single report from every single reporter that doesn't comport to your narrative. That, by definition, is irrational. You're not actually weighing information here, you're engaging in selection bias by picking and choosing what sources to use while disregarding others.

There is no proportion, logic, or method to your analysis.. it simply is based on the emotional response brought about by you "simply liking David Blatt," and "you can't convince me he's a bad coach." And you're ignoring that neither of these beliefs am I trying to argue against.

3) You're accusing me of bias and prejudice. Which I obviously take exception to. You have no evidence of bias; you just throw that out there because you can't back up your claims.

 

[gourimoko]

Uh actually he has taken everything that Blatt did and said he accomplished nothing. He said that straight up.

I did?

Gouri has the same issue that the reporters had last year. He thinks Blatt's accomplishments are nothing.

That's nonsense.. Please go through the game threads and the Blatt thread when he was actually coaching for this team.

I defended the guy routinely; even though I was critical of the offense we were running -- that was my primary grievance with David Blatt for the past 2 years.

When word came out about how awful the locker room was -- yes, I changed my opinion of him drastically, and felt he should have been terminated. Somehow, we have posters that think it's okay for coaches to lose nearly the entirety of the locker room and keep their jobs.

Since when is that how the NBA works?

He can't agree to disagree.

Homie you're the one that decided to have this debate, not me.

I happen to think Blatt's tenure was sabotaged.

Of course you do.

Lue hasn't had 1/100th of the scrutiny and the team was on his side before Day 1. Blatt did not enjoy such luxuries.

Lue didn't have the same degree of scrutiny? What is this based on?

And the "team" was against Blatt on Day 1, or LeBron? And was that really Day 1, or was it Day 2?

He doesn't understand why people still stand up for Blatt

No, I really don't, and I'm open to hearing why, but let's go through you're reasoning.

who has the best winning percentage of any cavs coach ever

Because maybe that's a lie?

David Blatt W-L
(2014-15) = 53-29; .646 (full season)
(2015-16) = 30-11; .732 (fired midseason)

Mike Brown W-L
(2008-09) = 66-16; .805
(2009-10) = 61-21; .744
(2006-08) = 50-32; .610 (two years straight)

How could you possibly get this wrong??

But, I have bias... right?

and only 2 less playoff wins than Lue.

Is that how we measure coaching?

This is asinine.

A guy who got fired when he was missing his 2nd best player and still had a better record than the previous year.

In what is it, 4 or 5 posts now, you've ignored every single reason mentioned for why he was fired.

It has been said, Blatt was fired regardless of the Cavs record. Yet you cite the Cavs record as evidence. It is then repeated, and the reasons are then enumerated for you; yet you repeat his record, again.

How is this rational?

That's what Gouri doesn't understand.

Right, because it is irrational.

Please read above, THINK about what I'm saying, then RESPOND to the reasoning behind WHY he was fired.....

Otherwise, this is pointless and just agree that it's pointless because you refuse to acknowledge the counterargument.

I am glad you "researchers" are on the case,

Another ad hominem... it's getting ridiculous and I'm losing my patience with politeness. Dial it down.

but I think you may have bought the official story a little too easily.

As opposed to what?

There were other facets here that have been completely ignored, in fact primary sources.

Cite them. Who, what, when is backing up your claim?

As a Cleveland fan, surely your distrust of the media should be pretty high, but them rewriting the same story over and over about a guy they don't get along with? No agenda there? I listen to all the post game interviews and then I read the stories they write form those interviews. There is a lot that they feel free to interpret. It's nothing new.

So all of those guys are lying...

Okay, then. Who is telling the truth, and why should I believe them over all these other folks?

People who think this is tedious are directing their Ire in the wrong direction. Gouri gets into these off-topic debates daily.

Another ad hominem..

You're talking all this shit, but have yet to really make your case.

It happens pretty rarely with me, because I honestly am not afraid of having a dissenting opinion and am not here to win anyone over.

Because this is about winning people over?

If I wanted to win people over, why would I have this conversation to begin with?

My whole point was to explain why some of us liked Blatt. That's all.

I don't care why you like him.

My argument is that he's not a better coach on this team than Ty Lue. That he did indeed deserve to be fired, and that David Griffin deserves credit for doing so.

You're running around everything Blatt did, going to the extremes of accusing LeBron James of racism and workplace discrimination, suggesting Griffin is a puppet, and the entirety of the media had it out for David Blatt -- we just need to open our eyes.

But you're not giving me any reason to.

p.s.
This is from last June:

"I don't think anyone is arguing for Blatt to be fired. Dunno why any criticism of him has to be taken to such extremes." -Gourimoko

This is from December 29th, 2015, after the Christmas game that one of the insiders you cited called "the last straw":

"Makes no sense to fire Blatt. As if he's a one trick pony. Appeal to his ability to change his gameplan and see what happens in 20 or so games.

No need for such a destabilizing move to the franchise considering we think he's the kind of coach who should be able to get it together eventually." -Gourimoko

...

Yet, I've had it out for him, huh?

 

[Tornicade]

Lue Vs? blatt? whats the point?

Season is finished.

Gratz Blatt on a well deserved ring.

 

[gourimoko]

Lue Vs? blatt? whats the point?

I agree.

Season is finished.

Yep.

Gratz Blatt on a well deserved ring.

Never change, bro..

 

[Gus Zing]

We got confirmation that Lebron wanted Blatt gone from day 1. We got confirmation that Lebron scrapped the offense and Mike Miller said "They didn't have the personnel to run it." after he said it was borderline genius.

We got the confirmation that Lebron wanted a coach that had been in the NBA and preferably one that was african american.

If you ask me, Blatt wasn't on time because he knew his days were numbered. He couldn't fight the Biggest name in basketball. He tried, but he couldn't do it. If you have ever been put in a position where it has been made impossible to do your job, you don't bust your ass to get everything done on time.

You think if Lue were in charge the Cavs would have won in 2015. That is absurd. That team was gassed and running on fumes by game 4. I knew they had given it their best shot by then.

We know the Cavs badmouth coaches and players on their way out. There is a pattern here.

I said that moving to coach Lue was the right decision, but to me it doesn't mean Blatt is a bad coach. He could have very well had the same success this year with a better roster, we do not know. I love Lue, man. He is great and he fucking delivered in his rookie year. It is impressive. His team was 2x or more better than the team Blatt rolled into the finals with.

It's something personal with you. i don't know why you are so in lockstep with this narrative. Chris Parker has said that the media had a bias against Blatt because their rapport was strained. He has stated that it wasn't the entire locker room against Blatt. We had JR and others sing his praises. Max told us that Lebron wanted someone else. When I get primary sources I disregard official press releases and bullshit cover stories.

There is more to this story than Blatt is a bad coach, and I don't think we will ever know what it was. You think you know. This is your personal crusade, so have fun with it. I just liked coach Blatt, I liked the way he talked about basketball, I think he did an amazing job in the finals, and IMO he is the 2nd best coach of the last 20 years.

hmm

 

[czvo]

For me, it boils down to two things:

1. His refusal to stand up to LeBron and BE the head coach
2. His inability to make things work with Kevin Love

This is from Brendan Haywood when Blatt was fired:

“Coach Blatt was very hesitant to challenge LeBron James,” Haywood said. “It was one of those situations where, being a rookie coach, and LeBron being bigger than life, it was a little too much for him. I remember we had James Jones [talk] to Coach about how, ‘Hey, you can’t just skip over when LeBron James makes a mistake in the film room.’ Because we all see it.

“And we’re like, ‘Hey, you didn’t say anything about that. You’re going to correct when Matthew Dellavedova‘s not in the right spot. You’re going to say something when Tristan Thompson‘s not in the right spot. Well, we see a fast break and LeBron didn’t get back on defense or there’s a rotation and he’s supposed to be there, and you just keep rolling the film and the whole room is quiet.’ We see that as players. That’s when … as a player, you start to lose respect for a coach.

“Slowly but surely, that respect started chipping away where he would kind of be scared to correct LeBron in film sessions. When he would call every foul for LeBron in practice. Those type of things add up. Guys are like, ‘C’mon man, are you scared of him?’ ”

Look, I don't care that LeBron is LeBron and you've never coached in the NBA before. You're hired to coach, be the goddamn coach. That doesn't mean treating everyone equally, because we all know stars are treated differently than end of bench guys. But you HAVE to hold everyone accountable. David Blatt, for reasons only he knows, refused to do that.


On the second point, I can go on and on about how Blatt refused to run anything through Love, or how Love's elbow touches skyrocketed post-firing. But this point is actually pretty simple. Blatt's first move when things weren't going well was to flat out bench Love. He more or less said, "I don't need this guy," when he told the media he wasn't sure Kevin was a max player.

What happened when Lue took over? Kevin Love not only played fourth quarters, he was on the floor, and a key part, of the Cavs winning game 7 against a team that was a "bad matchup" for him. Does Blatt get that out of Kevin Love? The better question is, does Blatt even give Kevin the chance to show that?

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

Just to be clear I did not start this thread.

I guess one of the mods copied my post from the Ty Lue thread & started this for some reason, I literally give zero fucks about this topic.

 

[wuck]

Just to be clear I did not start this thread.

I guess one of the mods copied my post from the Ty Lue thread & started this for some reason, I literally give zero fucks about this topic.

That's true, I moved the posts...

On the other hand, you did go WAY off topic in a thread devoted to Ty Lue.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

That's true, I moved the posts...

On the other hand, you did go WAY off topic in a thread devoted to Ty Lue.

Just wanted to show David Griffin some love & show how great all the moves he made where, starting a Blatt vs Lue debate was certainly not my intention lol