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David Blatt v. Tyronn Lue

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What a fucking shit show this thread is.

Everyone agreeing on the subject and then proceeding to argue about everyone being assholes for not agreeing in the right way.
 
Almost didn't even click on this thread

So, so glad that I did.

Tornicade literally slaying fools in here
 
I hope David Blatt stays safe. Turkey seems like a very dangerous place right now.
 
For me, it boils down to two things:

1. His refusal to stand up to LeBron and BE the head coach
2. His inability to make things work with Kevin Love

This is from Brendan Haywood when Blatt was fired:



Look, I don't care that LeBron is LeBron and you've never coached in the NBA before. You're hired to coach, be the goddamn coach. That doesn't mean treating everyone equally, because we all know stars are treated differently than end of bench guys. But you HAVE to hold everyone accountable. David Blatt, for reasons only he knows, refused to do that.


On the second point, I can go on and on about how Blatt refused to run anything through Love, or how Love's elbow touches skyrocketed post-firing. But this point is actually pretty simple. Blatt's first move when things weren't going well was to flat out bench Love. He more or less said, "I don't need this guy," when he told the media he wasn't sure Kevin was a max player.

What happened when Lue took over? Kevin Love not only played fourth quarters, he was on the floor, and a key part, of the Cavs winning game 7 against a team that was a "bad matchup" for him. Does Blatt get that out of Kevin Love? The better question is, does Blatt even give Kevin the chance to show that?

Couple quick points of order. Brendan Hayward was no fan of Blatt's, let's state from the start. Really wanted some court time and never saw it, so he had a reasonably large ax on that.

Second pt. tho' Love's elbow touches went up FOR A WHILE they went right back down and wound up at lower rate than under Blatt.

He obviously didn't say we don't need this guy, and that's overstated to the point of clownishness. He stated he wasn't sure KLove is a max player, and he isn't being pd max now, tho' $20M is some cool change.

W/R/T "the whole clubhouse was lost" let's be clear; I've talked to most of the players and can say with some confidence JR, Andy, Delly, Timo, Sasha, and Kyrie were sad to see him go. RJ didn't have a horse, but didn't have any complaints about minutes when I spoke to him. Never queried TT about it, but doubt he raised a fuss ever about anything. You can draw your own determinations on who that left. Love had nothing to say about Blatt, and I doubt there was any "love" lost.

IMO Griffin made the determination to make it work with Love instead of Blatt. Lue couldn't get much out of Love either until he challenged him to play like a Top 10 player and got on Ky & LBJ to keep passing him the ball even when he was missing. That was a big accomplishment, to get Ky and LBJ to put KLove on equal footing as far as getting the ball beyond the first quarter. So no shade on Lue for that, major accomplishment.

You're foolish if you don't think Lue earned that trophy. Remaining calm in those situations -esp. for a rookie coach- is big. He also stuck with his gameplan even when it didn't seem to work, and that confidence fed over to the team. Blatt's a good coach and could've won a championship here, but he probably made a few misteps that hurt.

Also, it's been pointed out that the "pointing out mistakes" thing might've been overstated since it is Ty Lue's responsibility to point out mistakes on defense not David Blatt's. Also, there was a rash of attempts to dump on him after he left, but it seems strange that a coach for 20+ years at a high (Olympic) level would be guilty of as many "rookie" coach mistakes as he was credited. I believe there was overstatement for the hot take but that's just an opinion...
 
Couple quick points of order. Brendan Hayward was no fan of Blatt's, let's state from the start. Really wanted some court time and never saw it, so he had a reasonably large ax on that.

Second pt. tho' Love's elbow touches went up FOR A WHILE they went right back down and wound up at lower rate than under Blatt.

He obviously didn't say we don't need this guy, and that's overstated to the point of clownishness. He stated he wasn't sure KLove is a max player, and he isn't being pd max now, tho' $20M is some cool change.

W/R/T "the whole clubhouse was lost" let's be clear; I've talked to most of the players and can say with some confidence JR, Andy, Delly, Timo, Sasha, and Kyrie were sad to see him go. RJ didn't have a horse, but didn't have any complaints about minutes when I spoke to him. Never queried TT about it, but doubt he raised a fuss ever about anything. You can draw your own determinations on who that left. Love had nothing to say about Blatt, and I doubt there was any "love" lost.

IMO Griffin made the determination to make it work with Love instead of Blatt. Lue couldn't get much out of Love either until he challenged him to play like a Top 10 player and got on Ky & LBJ to keep passing him the ball even when he was missing. That was a big accomplishment, to get Ky and LBJ to put KLove on equal footing as far as getting the ball beyond the first quarter. So no shade on Lue for that, major accomplishment.

You're foolish if you don't think Lue earned that trophy. Remaining calm in those situations -esp. for a rookie coach- is big. He also stuck with his gameplan even when it didn't seem to work, and that confidence fed over to the team. Blatt's a good coach and could've won a championship here, but he probably made a few misteps that hurt.

Also, it's been pointed out that the "pointing out mistakes" thing might've been overstated since it is Ty Lue's responsibility to point out mistakes on defense not David Blatt's. Also, there was a rash of attempts to dump on him after he left, but it seems strange that a coach for 20+ years at a high (Olympic) level would be guilty of as many "rookie" coach mistakes as he was credited. I believe there was overstatement for the hot take but that's just an opinion...
Chris, your skills as a reporter are truly unparalleled. This is a really explanatory analysis. Thanks!
 
One note about Blatt being late...

In other countries time isn't as regimented as it is in the United States. Being late isn't as big of a deal and folks don't pay as much attention to it (within reason).

Blatt had been living abroad for, like, 30 years. He may have brought that piece of culture along with him.

I think the problems Blatt had relating to the team had to do with assimilation....


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Couple quick points of order. Brendan Hayward was no fan of Blatt's, let's state from the start. Really wanted some court time and never saw it, so he had a reasonably large ax on that.

Second pt. tho' Love's elbow touches went up FOR A WHILE they went right back down and wound up at lower rate than under Blatt.

He obviously didn't say we don't need this guy, and that's overstated to the point of clownishness. He stated he wasn't sure KLove is a max player, and he isn't being pd max now, tho' $20M is some cool change.

W/R/T "the whole clubhouse was lost" let's be clear; I've talked to most of the players and can say with some confidence JR, Andy, Delly, Timo, Sasha, and Kyrie were sad to see him go. RJ didn't have a horse, but didn't have any complaints about minutes when I spoke to him. Never queried TT about it, but doubt he raised a fuss ever about anything. You can draw your own determinations on who that left. Love had nothing to say about Blatt, and I doubt there was any "love" lost.

IMO Griffin made the determination to make it work with Love instead of Blatt. Lue couldn't get much out of Love either until he challenged him to play like a Top 10 player and got on Ky & LBJ to keep passing him the ball even when he was missing. That was a big accomplishment, to get Ky and LBJ to put KLove on equal footing as far as getting the ball beyond the first quarter. So no shade on Lue for that, major accomplishment.

You're foolish if you don't think Lue earned that trophy. Remaining calm in those situations -esp. for a rookie coach- is big. He also stuck with his gameplan even when it didn't seem to work, and that confidence fed over to the team. Blatt's a good coach and could've won a championship here, but he probably made a few misteps that hurt.

Also, it's been pointed out that the "pointing out mistakes" thing might've been overstated since it is Ty Lue's responsibility to point out mistakes on defense not David Blatt's. Also, there was a rash of attempts to dump on him after he left, but it seems strange that a coach for 20+ years at a high (Olympic) level would be guilty of as many "rookie" coach mistakes as he was credited. I believe there was overstatement for the hot take but that's just an opinion...

Interesting I always thought that would make him prone to rookie mistakes: he coached in Europe where there are numerous differences (yes I know he played college here but that was decades ago). The pace of the game is far different at the end of games (less TO's), the wider lane, and the fact GS style of screens would be thought as not illegal enough Europe really do make for a different game.

Let alone the cultural differences in players: guys in Europe particularly Americans show a certain determination that isn't going to be present in a lot of more talented NBA players just as one. There is also no equivalent of a James like talent.

Overall, nothing I've read has made me change my mind Blatt: he was an ok coach. The internet tends to inflame opinion to go one way or the other but he didn't stick out like coaching superstar like Carlisle nor someone who I thought was awful despite winning (Brown). Going back to my first point, I do wonder how he'd have done with a few more years, it took even star players like Ginobili a year or two to really acclimate t the league and the talent level and that maybe the same for coaches. I would not have gone back to Europe if I was him: would have angled for the GS assistant job vacated by Walton if I was his agent
 
Interesting I always thought that would make him prone to rookie mistakes: he coached in Europe where there are numerous differences (yes I know he played college here but that was decades ago). The pace of the game is far different at the end of games (less TO's), the wider lane, and the fact GS style of screens would be thought as not illegal enough Europe really do make for a different game.

Let alone the cultural differences in players: guys in Europe particularly Americans show a certain determination that isn't going to be present in a lot of more talented NBA players just as one. There is also no equivalent of a James like talent.

Overall, nothing I've read has made me change my mind Blatt: he was an ok coach. The internet tends to inflame opinion to go one way or the other but he didn't stick out like coaching superstar like Carlisle nor someone who I thought was awful despite winning (Brown). Going back to my first point, I do wonder how he'd have done with a few more years, it took even star players like Ginobili a year or two to really acclimate t the league and the talent level and that maybe the same for coaches. I would not have gone back to Europe if I was him: would have angled for the GS assistant job vacated by Walton if I was his agent
I don't think it was a coincidence that these Blatt critical newsbombs came out at times he ws being interviewed for head coaching jobs. information that these guys should of been reporting at the time of the firing yet there it was 3 months later

As far as an Assistant job. Blatt may have been willing to do so to get his foot in the door but now that he has coached a team to the finals He will only be interested in Head coaching Jobs.
I would not be surprised if any overseas coaching he has includes an NBA Provision just like some players signed during the NBA strike
 
, team strategy (having LeBron inbound the ball with no time left on the clock?)

This is a completely bogus criticism. In one of the prior two games LeBron inbounded with the clock running down to JR who drained a shot. Lebron is the BEST passer on the team and has a SPOTTY AT BEST record with shots in the final seconds. It's a meme somewhere but I recall 7-57.

but yes some reporter had that hot take so it's gotta be true.

some reporter in that same postgame thought he heard JR Smith say that Blatt was "Dumb". But had to be retracted. I'm sure that happened because there was so much love in the media for him. I'm not going to go at length on anything else but this was a completely bogus media made-up narrative that people should've shat on long ago. LBJ is not good at game-winning shots so conventional wisdom on that is What-what-up-the-butt.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/4396/clutch-shots-are-tough-just-ask-lebron-james

Sometimes coaches get slammed exactly when they're being smart because other people aren't, or have an ax to grind....
 
Even if lebron is not the best at game winning shots, he's an excellent decoy on the floor in those situations. Having him in bound the ball is the worst possible choice because he's not a decoy and he's only drawing one defender. Maybe Lebron taking the shot is not ideal, but Lebron in bounding the ball was a bad play and the team knew it.
 
Even if lebron is not the best at game winning shots, he's an excellent decoy on the floor in those situations. Having him in bound the ball is the worst possible choice because he's not a decoy and he's only drawing one defender. Maybe Lebron taking the shot is not ideal, but Lebron in bounding the ball was a bad play and the team knew it.

Wildly disagree. He's the best passer on the team bar none. And he's tall enough to make any pass. Indeed not having him on the ball seems an equal crime. Nobody on the team can make passes into tight corners or hit cutting players like him.

But I get it. The media has decided this was a bad decision and it's hard for people to go against conventional stupidity.
 
The media has decided this was a bad decision and it's hard for people to go against conventional stupidity.

Um, aren't you like a member of the media or something? If so, then when does that even mean?
 
Um, aren't you like a member of the media or something? If so, then when does that even mean?

Yes and Titus Andronicus are a terrific "underground" rock band, but when people talk about "great rock bands" you're a much better bet to hear them say they meant ACDC , Van Halen or the Rolling Stones.

So I'd say I'm media in the same sense that Titus Andronicus are a rock band. You might say rock is dead, but you probably aren't talking about them.

Or to put it even simpler, there are narratives in life that are the mainstream narrative and then there are alternative narratives. I think you've been hoodwinked by a false mainstream narrative (e.g. fat is bad for you). But you know, that's just like my opinion, man.
 
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Blatt 100% got a raw deal. To be fired at 30-11 is pretty ridiculous all things considered. In terms of X's and O's and basketball coaching ability, I still believe he's more skilled than Lue.

That said, none of what I just said matters. It's abundantly clear that Ty Lue has LeBron James' respect (something Blatt simply never had and was never going to get) and ultimately there's no more valuable trait for a Cleveland Cavaliers coach than having LeBron's respect.

Being able to get elite talent to buy in to what you're selling and do what you're asking them to do at maximum effort is infinitely more important than play designs or even game planning.
 
Blatt 100% got a raw deal. To be fired at 30-11 is pretty ridiculous all things considered. In terms of X's and O's and basketball coaching ability, I still believe he's more skilled than Lue.

Blatt got a raw deal only if you are looking solely at win-loss record.

He obviously had X’s and O’s talent, but in terms of player accountability and trust, he had a year and a half to fix a locker room divide and the team actually regressed in that regard.
 

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