BMAN
All-Star
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2009
- Messages
- 7,955
- Reaction score
- 8,412
- Points
- 113
Prove he was a juicer. He was never even accused of doing it. And you're really going to blame him for leaving the second time? Sounds like you have a vendetta
-
Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.
James Howard Thome - MLB Hall of Famer
- Thread starter Stark
- Start date
col63onel
Brad Daugherty Fan Club
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 20,131
- Reaction score
- 26,505
- Points
- 235
You have proof? I get everyone from that era is a suspect, but if we're convicting people without evidence, then isn't every player guilty and no one should be loved?
This is really misrepresenting the situation, IMO.
He certainly "left" in 2002. Now, the Indians were going through rebuilding, and had no desire to re-sign for what he was worth. They "lowballed" him and I don't blame him for going to Philly. I do have issue with the fact that he refused to waive his no-trade clause. How much of that was Thome saying he'd consider staying when he really wasn't going to? How much was the Indians not communicating they were rebuilding when and weren't going to pay him? I think both sides could be culpable.
Saying he "left" after 2011 is really a stretch. They gave up nothing to have him for the stretch run with no intention of bringing him back in 2012. That's like saying CJ Miles "left" the Cavs in 2014.
Do you blame a player for leaving when the team had no intention of bringing him back? It definitely happened once and arguably happened both times he left.
Lofton "left" 2x as well, and we traded once because he was talking about testing free agency, so you could argue he "left" 3x.
Last edited:
Huber.
Adrninistrator
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 21,378
- Reaction score
- 17,165
- Points
- 123
In a little over 12 hours you went to "probably a steroid user" to "was a juicer". Did you, yourself inject it into his taint?
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2010
- Messages
- 9,246
- Reaction score
- 12,953
- Points
- 123
Let's just say that Thome has more of a mixed legacy than some would like to admit. Good for him to make the HOF, and we can leave it at that. I hope Omar, Sandy and Kenny have statues on the way...
col63onel
Brad Daugherty Fan Club
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 20,131
- Reaction score
- 26,505
- Points
- 235
All time HR leader, the best Indians hitter, by oWAR since pre-Depression, one of the most prolific postseason hitters in MLB history, well liked by teammates and media, played during the entirety of the most popular era of baseball in team history. You have to stretch to make it a "mixed" legacy.
Steve_424
Hall-of-Famer
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 10,562
- Reaction score
- 13,194
- Points
- 123
By most reports, the Indians approached Jim the summer before he hit free agency and asked if he would want to re-sign and stay on through the rebuild or be traded that summer to a contender. Jim reportedly said he really wanted to stay, so the Indians hung on to him.
In November of 2002, the Indians offered Jim Thome a fair deal at the time - 5 years, $62 M. The offer also included a guaranteed front office job when he retired, several local baseball fields to be constructed in his name, and a statue. He signed with Philadelphia for 6 years, $85 M.
Here's an article with Thome discussing it:
"(The Indians) let it be known they were going to rebuild and do some things," said Thome, who was grilled by Cleveland media members during much of the 20-minute session. "I told them I would like to be a part of that. A year ago, they told us they were going to give us a contract during spring training. We were hoping for that.
"I imagined being an Indian forever. Then, when I did get to the free agent market, I still wanted an opportunity to finish there. But if that wasn't going to happen, I wanted an opportunity to win in a short period of time."
Thome said the two biggest factors in his decision to leave
Cleveland were getting a sixth season on his contract and having an opportunity to win.
"I don't want to get into a lot of things that happened,"
Thome said. "I made it very clear that I would have taken less money to stay there. They did what they had to do as far as the rebuilding process. I just wanted a chance there and if I didn't get that opportunity, I had to look (elsewhere). That's where Philly came in because they had an opportunity to win."
My main issue was Jim not owning the decision. Manny and Albert both were fully clear that they were going to the highest bidder. Thome told the Indians he wanted to be a part of the rebuild, but then he says he wanted to win. Money wasn't a factor, but a 6th guaranteed year (more money) was a factor. He had every right to leave...just own it.
And the fact that the Indians STILL gave him a statue is laughable. It looks so out of place next to the others.
Jim is a great guy and he's a Hall of Fame player, but he absolutely botched his exit and to this day hasn't owned that. I can appreciate those who still cheer him and are excited for him, but our season tickets will be on StubHub this year the night they honor him.
col63onel
Brad Daugherty Fan Club
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 20,131
- Reaction score
- 26,505
- Points
- 235
The initial offer was 4 years 42mil. This was right after they had given Matt Lawton 4/27 a week after trading for him. They then "upped" it to 62 because Philly was giving him over 80mil, but by then it was too late. If they offer him 5 for 62 the first time, he probably stays. Or if they try and take care of him before Matt Lawton, he probably stays. Indians lowballed him.
Frank Reynolds
Co-Owner Paddy's Pub
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2010
- Messages
- 3,710
- Reaction score
- 5,662
- Points
- 113
When he gets to the Mic at Cooperstown he needs to do the patented Thome crotch grab, batting glove adjustment, crotch grab....
Steve_424
Hall-of-Famer
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 10,562
- Reaction score
- 13,194
- Points
- 123
Do you think 6/$85 M was the Phillies first offer? The Indians didn't lowball him at all.
Stark
The Winds of Winter
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 22,094
- Reaction score
- 23,852
- Points
- 135
I feel like if Thome juiced, it would've been public knowledge, especially since he cleared 600 HRs.
I've got guys like Thome, Belle, Griffey, Frank Thomas, and Fred McGriff all clean. The guys that either did or probably juiced like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, Ortiz, etc have all been ousted at this point.
Thome is still built like a truck, and you'll notice that a lot of the assumed users from the 90s/00s have shrunk way back down.
I've got guys like Thome, Belle, Griffey, Frank Thomas, and Fred McGriff all clean. The guys that either did or probably juiced like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, Ortiz, etc have all been ousted at this point.
Thome is still built like a truck, and you'll notice that a lot of the assumed users from the 90s/00s have shrunk way back down.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2010
- Messages
- 9,246
- Reaction score
- 12,953
- Points
- 123
Hate to burst your bubble, but it's likely that most of those 90s Indians juiced. ManRam was busted. Belle had ridiculous anger issues. Thome was a stick when he came up..even Omar suddenly jumped from 1-7 HRs every year to 14 in 2002 and then back to 1-7.
All 90s-00s baseball players, yes Jim Thome included, are suspect.
Nice guy sure. But let's not assume he was the only clean guy in baseball.
Stark
The Winds of Winter
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 22,094
- Reaction score
- 23,852
- Points
- 135
What? I didn't say anything about Manny. He did juice; we all know that. I also didn't say that Thome was the only clean guy in baseball. I legitimately said in my post that guys like Griffey, Thomas, McGriff, etc. from that era are widely regarded as clean opposed to the likes of Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa.
If you read up on it, Belle had anger issues as an elementary and high school student, so unless he was juicing at age 10-12, that's not a good excuse. Guy was tested a bunch. No public record of him ever failing.
Omar jumping from averaging 5 HR from 1995-2001 to randomly hitting 14 in 2002 doesn't mean anything at all. Players have aberration years all the time. Things break the right way; you get wind on a specific pitch. Things happen. If he would have randomly cranked 25, then yeah, I'd get the suspicion. 14? Nah. If you want a one-year wonder of a year completely fueled by PEDs, go look at Brady Anderson in 1996. Guy hit 23.8% of his home runs over a 15 year career in one season.
Rod Carew averaged 4 HR per season from 1967-1974, then hit 14, 9, and 14 the next three seasons, before averaging 3 HR per season until his retirement in 1985. I doubt Rod Carew was a juicer.
From 1982-1996, Tony Gwynn (RIP) averaged 6 HR per season. Then, he cranked out 17 HR and 16 HR in his age 37 & 38 seasons. I highly doubt Gwynn was a juicer.
Scott Podsednik randomly hit 12 homers in 2004 despite finishing with an average of 3 HR per season for his career after that and 42 career homers.
Hell, even Lindor just jumped up to 33 HR last season after averaging 14 in his first two.
Aberrations happen all the time in baseball. Vizquel randomly cracking a bit over a dozen homers one season doesn't mean anything, and he is widely regarded as a clean baseball player. Sounds like you're just out on a witch hunt for whatever reason.
col63onel
Brad Daugherty Fan Club
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 20,131
- Reaction score
- 26,505
- Points
- 235
6/75 ish was roughly there first offer, IIRC.
Steve_424
Hall-of-Famer
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 10,562
- Reaction score
- 13,194
- Points
- 123
Makes sense. My point is that no team is starting with their best offer. If the Indians ONLY offered 4/42, I'd agree on a lowball. That was a starting point. I think it was the money plus having a shot to win which, again, is fine. But don't say it wasn't about the money or the rebuild when it absolutely was. Jim is a great guy, I just wish he'd own that part. Doing otherwise has just made the Indians look bad.