2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[JMoneyYourHoney]

Kyrie is a much better scorer than Paul, he also has better handles. The massive mistake many people always make about Kyrie is to measure him as a PG instead of simply as a guard. He also already has 1 more championship than Chris Paul will ever win.

 

[Ohio]

Kobe and Shaq have both just won the award once, and they both have been multiple finals MVPs.

It is pure stupidity Shaq only had one MVP.

Steph actually has more MVPs than both of these guys. So does Nash. What a disgrace.

Your overall point is a great one though, the MVP is a hard award to win because there is no criteria for it. The media just does what they want. It's a shame such an award has no criteria given that it's a relevant piece to someone's legacy. Nothing you can do will guarantee the MVP. Being the best player, having the best season, being the most valuable, etc. None of it means you will win MVP.

 

[godfather]

Kyrie is a much better scorer than Paul, he also has better handles. The massive mistake many people always make about Kyrie is to measure him as a PG instead of simply as a guard.

Well, yes, his ball handling skills are better than everyone's. I kinda was just factoring that to go along with his scoring.

He also already has 1 more championship than Chris Paul will ever win.

Oh, come on, man. Don't put me in the position where I'm trying to downgrade what Kyrie did, because he deserves a hell of a lot of praise and we DEFINITELY don't win it all without him. But using the title argument is unfair to Paul.

Pippen has 6 titles, Bird 3, is Pippen better?

When in the world has Paul had anyone nearly as good as LeBron as a teammate? Hell, I personally think Griffin is overrated and not even as good as as Kevin Love IMHO.

Some might prefer Griffin, but I rather have Love when healthy. That's just me.

I do rather have Kyrie Irving on this team compared to CP3. When that was even being floated around, last year, I strongly disagreed. I think Kyrie and LeBron's games are just absolutely perfect for each other.

And Kyrie might be the most "perfect" star LB has ever played with. Not better than Wade, but he does things Wade didn't do that mesh better with LB's game IMO. They just balance each off so well. And it's joy to have. I couldn't be happier with what Kyrie has done for us.

But CP3, at this point, has been the superior player. That's not a knock to Kyrie. After Kobe and Wade, he's been the third best guard of this generation, IMO.

 

[godfather]

It is pure stupidity Shaq only had one MVP.

Steph actually has more MVPs than both of these guys. So does Nash. What a disgrace.

Your overall point is a great one though, the MVP is a hard award to win because there is no criteria for it. The media just does what they want. It's a shame such an award has no criteria given that it's a relevant piece to someone's legacy. Nothing you can do will guarantee the MVP. Being the best player, having the best season, being the most valuable, etc. None of it means you will win MVP.

I think Kyrie will be an MVP candidate one day, it's just hard to say MVP given the award doesn't even mean that much anymore. And the writers factor in some odd things.

Hell. I think Kobe was making good MVP cases on some of those Smush Parker, total ass teams.. But his team's record wasn't good enough, kinda petty stuff they factor.

Sometimes bad luck does play into as well. There have been guys that have had really truly MVP years, and others just had great years too.

Hell, Westbrook is averaging a triple double, which is the second time this has ever happen, and he's not going to win it. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

 

[KI4MVP]

But CP3, at this point, has been the superior player. That's not a knock to Kyrie. After Kobe and Wade, he's been the third best guard of this generation, IMO.

I said Kyrie will have a better career, not that he already has.

 

[ACisKING]

Even with Paul turning 32 this Summer?


You know, I was thinking about something like this the other day...the pass first, double-digit assist, floor general, good defensive superstar PGs that people fall in love with all the time...CP3, John Wall types...

I cannot remember the last time one of those players (as the best player) led their team to a Championship. Isiah Thomas?

It was just an epiphany I had, that those players have not led their team to a title in my lifetime. Was a fascinating realization. Makes you wonder why people only love those types of PGs when they don't lead their teams to Championships, or even make The Finals.

Really, the only PG at all that has won a title as the team's best player since Isiah is Curry...and he let a role player win Finals MVP Not to mention if not for our injuries...you get the point.

TLDR; It's really hard to win a Championship with a PG as your best player and I'll never understand the obsession with the traditional PG.

You are def right that very few championship teams have had a traditional point guard as their best players, but it's not like score first point guards have a better success rate as a team's best player. Curry, Parker in 2007 (though I'd argue Duncan was still better), and maybe Billups are the only ones that come to mind. It has less to do with the distinction between pass-first and score-first and more to do with how a relatively short player just can't affect a game on both ends the way a dominant wing or big can. Height is still a massive advantage in basketball.

 

[ACisKING]

Well, yes, his ball handling skills are better than everyone's. I kinda was just factoring that to go along with his scoring.



Oh, come on, man. Don't put me in the position where I'm trying to downgrade what Kyrie did, because he deserves a hell of a lot of praise and we DEFINITELY don't win it all without him. But using the title argument is unfair to Paul.

Pippen has 6 titles, Bird 3, is Pippen better?

When in the world has Paul had anyone nearly as good as LeBron as a teammate? Hell, I personally think Griffin is overrated and not even as good as as Kevin Love IMHO.

Some might prefer Griffin, but I rather have Love when healthy. That's just me.

I do rather have Kyrie Irving on this team compared to CP3. When that was even being floated around, last year, I strongly disagreed. I think Kyrie and LeBron's games are just absolutely perfect for each other.

And Kyrie might be the most "perfect" star LB has ever played with. Not better than Wade, but he does things Wade didn't do that mesh better with LB's game IMO. They just balance each off so well. And it's joy to have. I couldn't be happier with what Kyrie has done for us.

But CP3, at this point, has been the superior player. That's not a knock to Kyrie. After Kobe and Wade, he's been the third best guard of this generation, IMO.

Kyrie is the perfect fit with LeBron without doubt. No other player combines youth with the skills to mesh with LeBron.

I totally agree with you on Paul though. He is perhaps the most underrated great player ever. He combined remarkable consistency, perfect command of tempo, gifted passing, deadly shooting, tremendous bball IQ, great hands, and incredible defensive instincts that allowed him to dominate on both ends despite his stature, or lack thereof. Even at this stage of his career there are times when I watch him and I think I'd trust him to run my offense over any of the other elite point guards.

There are many reasons why Durant joining the Warriors is bad for the league but one of them certainly has to be that we will likely never see Chris Paul in the Finals, which is a shame given how great he has been in his career. He deserves to be remembered as a top five all time point guard but probably won't be and that's unfortunate.

 

[NorthCoastBias]

I love, love, love Kyrie. He is basically infallible in my eyes. That being said, when we look back in 25 years, there's no question in my mind that Chris Paul will be viewed as a better player and rightfully so.

 

[godfather]

I said Kyrie will have a better career, not that he already has.

Those are still mighty big expectations. Hey, I hope he does.

I think Chris Paul, after Magic and Thomas, might be the best point guard. He gives Stockton a run for his money. I love Stockton, he was one of my favorites next to the Glove. So I'm bias there. But I can't deny CP3 might be the better of two. I used to think it was Stockton, but I'm not so sure. They're different.

I think Stockton runs the pick-and-roll better than everyone that's ever played, even Paul, but I don't think he's hands down better than him in that department. And that's the only thing I can think of that Stockton his him beat.

But even still, Paul has mastered the lop pass off the pick-and-roll better than anyone.

As a pure passer it's hard to top Magic and Stockton. But Paul, I think is a better defender than Stockton and obviously a better scorer. It's at least a legit question.

Paul and Kyrie different players though, not denying that.

I think Kyrie really needs to improve his defense going forward to make a better argument. Paul isn't just good, he's absolutely great in this regard.

He doesn't need to be that good obviously, but when we factor in both sides of the ball. Sure, Kyrie can score better, but Paul is excellent running an offense and getting the best out of others on the floor.

So it's at least a toss up which player is the better offensive player. Even if you say Kyrie, I don't think it's by that much..

But Paul is an elite defender, and Kyrie has been pretty awful on that end. Downright near the worst in the league category at times. So, as of now, that's where the comparison falls off for Kyrie.

He doesn't need to be Paul good, but I think Kyrie needs to become at least an average defensive player, and continue to build on his scoring/playing making game to make it more of a legit debate going forward.

As of now, Paul is superior overall in their careers thus far.

 

[godfather]

I love, love, love Kyrie. He is basically infallible in my eyes. That being said, when we look back in 25 years, there's no question in my mind that Chris Paul will be viewed as a better player and rightfully so.

He might be viewed as the third greatest point guard ever.

I don't even like Paul. I think he's an asshole personally, but I do think he's underappreciated as a player though. There's no shame if Kyrie never tops him overall.

This winning championship stuff doesn't validate if you're great.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

He might be viewed as the third greatest point guard ever.

I don't even like Paul. I think he's an asshole personally, but I do think he's underappreciated as a player though. There's no shame if Kyrie never tops him overall.

This winning championship stuff doesn't validate if you're great.

It doesn't validate it, but it certainly helps. A lot.

Who was the better player, Scottie Pippen or Clyde Drexler? At the time when the Bulls and Blazers were going head-to-head a lot of people would have laughed if there was a suggestion that Pippen would be remembered as the better player and that is no knock on Scottie. Drexler was just considered on the highest a level during his prime in Portland.

Sure, Pip was younger and had more years left, but when they went head-to-head in The Finals -- for example -- Drexler was being compared to Jordan, not Pippen.

If you asked people nowadays, a lot may say Pippen. Why? He was a great player obviously, but I'd also contend he is remembered so well -- in part -- because he played on arguably the most high profile team in NBA history and alongside the GOAT. And he won championships.

As great as Drexler was (and he was great), he never won a title. It may not make a huge difference in the way that people look at CP3 and others now, but wait 20-30 years.

 

[NorthCoastBias]

Drexler didn't win a title as "the man," but he won a ring with Hakeem in '95 as a member of the Rockets.

 

[Ohio]

Chris Paul is past his prime and Kyrie hasn't even started his yet.

It's impossible to compare the careers of these two right now. Especially considering we've never seen a team built around Kyrie and we've never seen CP3 play with another superstar such as LeBron.

 

[RedBlackAttack]

Drexler didn't win a title as "the man," but he won a ring with Hakeem in '95 as a member of the Rockets.

That's true. Forgot about 1994-95.

He was only on that team for 35 games, but yeah... he did. My overall point still stands, though. Had those Portland teams won just one title and Drexler had a "moment," he'd be way up there.

 

[Ohio]

It may not make a huge difference in the way that people look at CP3 and others now, but wait 20-30 years.

Yep...if you never even made it to The Finals, it's going to be real hard for people to remember you.

If you think about the top 10-15 players all-time, or the top 3 players at each position all-time, all of them made The Finals at least once.

I can't imagine a player being remembered as one of the truest greats if they never competed on the biggest stage. It is a fairly big deal.