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2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

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Regrade the finalized trade

  • A+

    Votes: 20 8.0%
  • A

    Votes: 70 27.9%
  • B

    Votes: 74 29.5%
  • C

    Votes: 39 15.5%
  • D

    Votes: 18 7.2%
  • F

    Votes: 30 12.0%

  • Total voters
    251
I apologize for my comments, and will edit/delete them. I get the strong feeling we're getting the LBJ and Cavs FO spin machine in full voice right now while Kyrie is a continent away, and I definitely don't think it's an accident.

As I said before, knowing folks who know and trust Kyrie, I have faith in his judgment. The thing that worries me is that stuff that he does to screw w/ people as a lark (the flat-earth thing being the most obvious example -- I mean, come on, folks. Dude was born in Australia. He knows the world isn't flat -- he just likes to screw with people), in concert w/ the fact that Ky has never been obsessed w/ or worried about the media's view of him is gonna leave him w/ the short straw here, and he'll pay the price for it.

Frankly, I think Kyrie is just tired of being considered the basketball version of TV's 'time-slot hit.' I see it from the Haberstroh's of the world. I see it here. I see it on RealGM. I think he knows that the only way he will legitimize himself as a player is to lead a team w/o LeBron, and he knows just as well as we all do that a Bron-centered team w/o LeBron is the exact wrong fate for him.

Again, apologies.


Define legitimize. If you mean be the best player on a contender, that's simply never going to happen.

He's either going to be in a tier 1 player's shadow, or the main man on an also ran. That's what he is. Highly entertaining player to watch because of his offensive skillset, but just another guy who needs to score 27 efficiently on offense to break even with his deficiencies. I was for trading him before all of this because his only value is as a scorer. Lebron is a far superior facilitator, and his main function was trading baskets against the other elite teams and trying to beat them at their own game which was futile.

Any time he was afforded the opportunity to be the main man when Lebron sat, we lost to teams with inferior talent. He is what he is. If he was offended at being deemed expendable when he is expendable if given the opportunity to obtain a more complete player, that's simply a lack of self-awareness on his part. He'd be a really good second or third option on a team with teammates who could cover for his defensive liabilities or with a dominant rim protector who could serve as a last resort for his turnstyle defense. He has some amazing offensive skills, but is simply one dimensional on a team that can't afford the pieces necesssary to complement his shortcomings. It's been apparent what he is for quite awhile, so it's the FO's fault as much as his for not pairing him with consistent rim protection.
 
Beyond people on this board and all around the basketball word voices their opinions, what "spin" do you think the Cavs or LeBron have concocted?

I mean Windhorst broke that Kyrie met with the Cavs in the past 10-14 days and asked to be traded. Kyries agent confirmed a meeting between he, Kyrie, and Gilbert took place and did not come close to denying anything that was put out in the initial report. Most of what has been written in actual articles by Windy, Lloyd, Woj, etc about WHY Kyrie wants to leave is the same stuff you are essentially saying.

So what is the spin you're referring to.

Their are three main sides to this developing story. Kyrie camp. LeBron camp. Cavs camp. And none of them ever want to look bad or be perceived as being in the wrong. So if there is spin happening, and really Saturday was about as quiet as it gets after everything broke on Friday, it's coming from all sides

Being as young as Kyrie is and given how succesfull this team has been, with him as a key part(you are massively overstating him getting overlooked on this board but it's natural to pay more attention to the loud voices who say something counter to your own beliefs), I would have preferred the guy being willing to just play his deal out and then use the natural process of FA to set up how he wants the rest of his career to play out.

Maybe he goes on to great success as a leader and #1 force behind a franchise. It's possible. He has the talent and can still improve as both a defender and playmaker for others.

But he may also look back years later in hindsight and realize that being a Wade/Pippen is ultimately more rewarding than being a Bernard King/Dominique Wilkins

Sorry, watching the British Open, but I think(?) I answered most of this in my post above).

I'm certainly not a mind reader, and I will say with no compunction that Dred Irving IS a wild card in all of this (Dred's quite the helicopter parent), but Kyrie as a person has no interest in screwing over the Cavs whatsoever from what I understand. My GUESS, w/ no inside information, given what I know about Kyrie, is that he wanted to express his reservations to the organization about a post-LBJ-state, and, when he didn't get answers that seemed reasonable, he likely concluded the meeting w/ his trade request.

Personally, I don't think was an endgame. I think he knows that it will take time, and this was a first step in perhaps trying to exert some power.

But, then, SOMEONE leaked it w/ a certain 'shading,' so to speak...

My guess is he says nothing publicly until he can speak with the organization again when he's back in the country. Don't expect tweets or IG's throwing shade or baring his soul in the interim.
 
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Not tryna be funny right here

But Kyrie wants a team built around him?

How do you actually build a team around Kyrie?

Dude is a PG who doesnt pass or play D and his best attribute is 1 on 1 scoring.


I think this is why he wants to play with Butler and Kawhi. Because he knows theyll play defense for him and not complain when he jacks up 35 shots with 1 assist like LeBron did.
 
Define legitimize. If you mean be the best player on a contender, that's simply never going to happen.

He's either going to be in a tier 1 player's shadow, or the main man on an also ran. That's what he is. Highly entertaining player to watch because of his offensive skillset, but just another guy who needs to score 27 efficiently on offense to break even with his deficiencies. I was for trading him before all of this because his only value is as a scorer. Lebron is a far superior facilitator, and his main function was trading baskets against the other elite teams and trying to beat them at their own game which was futile.

Any time he was afforded the opportunity to be the main man when Lebron sat, we lost to teams with inferior talent. He is what he is. If he was offended at being deemed expendable when he is expendable if given the opportunity to obtain a more complete player, that's simply a lack of self-awareness on his part. He'd be a really good second or third option on a team with teammates who could cover for his defensive liabilities or with a dominant rim protector who could serve as a last resort for his turnstyle defense. He has some amazing offensive skills, but is simply one dimensional on a team that can't afford the pieces necesssary to complement his shortcomings. It's been apparent what he is for quite awhile, so it's the FO's fault as much as his for not pairing him with consistent rim protection.

I'm not going to elaborate on why judging the 'outcomes' of the non-Bron time is folly, but suffice to say that a team playing to Kyrie's strengths and against his weaknesses would be essentially the opposite of that which is currently constituted.
 
Not tryna be funny right here

But Kyrie wants a team built around him?

How do you actually build a team around Kyrie?

Dude is a PG who doesnt pass or play D and his best attribute is 1 on 1 scoring.


I think this is why he wants to play with Butler and Kawhi. Because he knows theyll play defense for him and not complain when he jacks up 35 shots with 1 assist like LeBron did.

You build a team around Kyrie much the same way the Celtics cover for Isaiah Thomas' weaknesses. Long and good perimeter defenders like Smart, Rozier, Bradley (Celts are REALLY gonna miss him). What the Celtics are really missing for the right mix is having a true shot blocker for the middle.
 
Yea, like, there's fingers to point everywhere but no one or no thing is perfect.

The team was well constructed. Just not well enough to beat that Durant move. And if the Cavs and James had playes everything perfect in every year prior, it still probably wouldnt have been enough.

Whatever. The way it is. Irving is leaving in two years. You'll never get as much value as you can right now for him.

No Team had an answer to the KD move.. How could you? The Best Team adding the 2nd Best Player... thats like NBA 2k Cheat Mode Stuff...

That would be like the 2011 Heat adding Kobe... or the 90s Bulls adding Karl Malone..
Its absurd... unthinkable even.. and then you realise thats exactly what KD and GSW did...

We were well build.. in 2015 it was injuries and in 2016 it actually was enough. And last year.. well KD just makes them so much harder to guard.

GSW was in the totally unique Situation that their two time MVP was on a bargin deal because of early Career Injuries... (and he gave them a Paycut back then) And that his deal ends only 1 year after they can add KD.. And that the Cap rose by over 30%...
That stuff usually never happens... As a Opponent GM you cant plan for stuff like this...Not years ahead while builidng your Team.

Hell back in 2015 before the Season no one saw the Warriors emerging ... The plan was us vs SA..

We have the bad luck that a All Time Great Team emerged out of nothing...right in our Window.. And because GSW became so great so fast you cant plan properly.. you can just try to react.. That worked in 2016.. but how do you counter KD? .... you just cant..
 
No Team had an answer to the KD move.. How could you? The Best Team adding the 2nd Best Player... thats like NBA 2k Cheat Mode Stuff...

That would be like the 2011 Heat adding Kobe... or the 90s Bulls adding Karl Malone..
Its absurd... unthinkable even.. and then you realise thats exactly what KD and GSW did...

We were well build.. in 2015 it was injuries and in 2016 it actually was enough. And last year.. well KD just makes them so much harder to guard.

GSW was in the totally unique Situation that their two time MVP was on a bargin deal because of early Career Injuries... (and he gave them a Paycut back then) And that his deal ends only 1 year after they can add KD.. And that the Cap rose by over 30%...
That stuff usually never happens... As a Opponent GM you cant plan for stuff like this...Not years ahead while builidng your Team.

Hell back in 2015 before the Season no one saw the Warriors emerging ... The plan was us vs SA..

We have the bad luck that a All Time Great Team emerged out of nothing...right in our Window.. And because GSW became so great so fast you cant plan properly.. you can just try to react.. That worked in 2016.. but how do you counter KD? .... you just cant..

I think we all agree that it was the Perfect Storm of Horribleness on that front.
 
I think the Kings are a perfect example of what you can get out of Kyrie.

D'aaron Fox, Hield, and MCS.
Cavs now have assets on rookie contracts.

Kyrie is a franchise type player. you have to look long term in any deal made for him.

the key here is signing Derrick rose as well as having Korver, Green and Jefferson on the rotation.

also notice I said example. in this case the Cavs would be gambling that Fox becomes a john wall type of player.
 
I think the Kings are a perfect example of what you can get out of Kyrie.

D'aaron Fox, Hield, and MCS.
Cavs now have assets on rookie contracts.

Kyrie is a franchise type player. you have to look long term in any deal made for him.

the key here is signing Derrick rose as well as having Korver, Green and Jefferson on the rotation.

also notice I said example. in this case the Cavs would be gambling that Fox becomes a john wall type of player.

Fox is similar to Wall in terms of his speed and his lack of outside shooting.

Wall, however, as a physical presence, has been a man among boys since, well, forever going back to his high school time at WOG. I still say he has the best HS mixtape of literally anyone of all time (though Zion Williamson will challenge it).

Fox is much more physically slight, and will get beaten up. The kid has like a 28 inch waist...

BTW, just for fun -- check out Wall's HS mixtape (and this is only volume 1 lol)

 
Fox is similar to Wall in terms of his speed and his lack of outside shooting.

Wall, however, as a physical presence, has been a man among boys since, well, forever going back to his high school time at WOG. I still say he has the best HS mixtape of literally anyone of all time (though Zion Williamson will challenge it).

Fox is much more physically slight, and will get beaten up. The kid has like a 28 inch waist...

BTW, just for fun -- check out Wall's HS mixtape (and this is only volume 1 lol)

Why would I care about Wall. Wizards aren't trading him.

The point is the guy is fast and tall with a lot of potential.

Cavs have the shooters to surround Fox with while he develops his shot and Love is the perfect complement to Fox on the pick and roll. before you even enter the LeBron factor into it.

I mean you can point out a smaller frame and lesser wingspan but I didn't not say he was John Wall. I said He could have the impact of a wall with his height and speed as well as his defensive attitude.
 
Why would I care about Wall. Wizards aren't trading him.

The point is the guy is fast and tall with a lot of potential.

Cavs have the shooters to surround Fox with while he develops his shot and Love is the perfect complement to Fox on the pick and roll. before you even enter the LeBron factor into it.

I mean you can point out a smaller frame and lesser wingspan but I didn't not say he was John Wall. I said He could have the impact of a wall with his height and speed as well as his defensive attitude.

Sorry, I just thought folks might enjoy watching the Wall mixtape (as it's still amazing to me almost 10 yrs later), and I wanted folks to understand how physically dominant he's been since he was 15.

Didn't mean to annoy or offend.

In terms of the utilitarian response, I guess I'll go short-form --

Fox is fast

Wall was physically dominant, fast, and had great court vision.

Sorry.
 
This whole situation reminds me of how much happier I am when sports are far from my mind. Those magical two week windows where all of my teams are done playing but not yet in off-season mode yet. Why can't I just live there forever
 
Cavs won't trade Kyrie for a bunch of prospects....that is a guarantee .. They will get back a legit 20ppg scorer and younger pieces
 
I really wish the nba didn't have that retarded rule that you have to wait until December 15th to trade players you just signed. I would love to get George hill and WCS from Sacramento.
 
Love what KI brought to the team and will always remember him as the one making The Shot n one of the top 5 players to ever play for the CAVS...but now that he wants to move on, think it offers a special opportunity for the CAVS to still compete n prepare the post Lebron era, being in one year or later down the lane.
Reading all the trades' proposals, I would go this way:
CAVS/SUNS:
To CAVS -> Bledsoe / JJ / Davon Reed + 2018 1st from Miami
To Phoenix -> Irving / Shumpert
!Phoenix needs to sign Len for 10 or under and then they have the Cap Space!
=> That would give Phoenix with:
KI/Booker/Warren/Chriss/Chandler + Knight/Shump/Dudley/Bendner/Len (entertaining n young but not a contender)

CAVS/SIXERS:
To CAVS -> Holmes + McDonell
To SIXERS -> Frye + Calderon + Miami 1st 2018 (Cedi instead of Calderon if necessary)
!Sixers won't pay Holmes & McDonell as they'll have to pay their core at one point and they don't add 2019 salary!

You then have for CAVS:
Bledsoe / JR / LBJ / KL / Holmes
DRose / Korver / JJ / Green / TT
McDonell / D.Reed / Cedi / RJ / Tavares

This roster is really well balanced. You don't mortgage the future with a Melo deal. You save shit loads of luxury tax as you are down to 128M$. You got younger (10 under 30) with control over Bledsoe / JR / KL / Holmes / Korver / JJ / TT / McD / D Reed / Cedi / Tavares. And if LBJ bolts, you are down to 91M$ in 2018 with 4 rosters to fill.
 

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