Larry Nance - Power Forward or Center

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

You ignored my point entirely and then finished by saying it didn't make sense to you. I'm not talking about Zizic and Nance, but you seem obsessed with a simple point: Zizic doesn't have to change very much, but Nance does. I disagree.

In my opinion, Nance is much further along and is much closer to a modern NBA big man than Zizic at this point.

They both need to extend their range, but Nance can guard 1-5.

Are you happy now? We'll discuss this on your terms.

Can Nance take advantage of a switch? Can he post up? Can Nance finish at an elite level among the trees? unless he gets a lob pass on occasion which is much tougher against starting Cs than against PFs or Backups. Nance can not be a high volume scorer without developing his range...he will just not have a ton of scoring opportunities. Defenders will continue to bump him on rolls and tall defenders will continue to block his lobbing radius. He needs to learn how to attack in the short roll. He already showed willingness and passing ability @ short roll, so his next step is to be able to attack efficiently as a scorer.

Now, another reason why I want him to develop range is because I see his potential as someone who is able to punish closeouts from behind the 3pt line either as a finisher or as a passer.

Defensively, he will get bullied against top tier Centers.

Nance can guard 1-5 in theory, but as far as limiting their shooting efficiency he has been sub par. Where was his switching ability in the finals? he got cooked. Nance gets his value on D from his ability to generate steals and rebound the ball. Sure he can switch as well, but he isn't going to shut down alone or limit them to their below average efficiency.

"Modern NBA big" is someone that can switch 1-5, protect the rim and shoot the 3 right? So Nance does not switch effectively 1-5 yet, he does not protect the rim all that well because he lacks size and he does not shoot 3's yet. So he may be further a long, but what does it matter if he doesn't do any of those 3 things very well?

Why are we chasing this modern NBA big man archetype? is that a rule that I missed? To be able to switch, you also need your PG defender to be able to rebound the ball and battle the post and limit post scoring efficiency. Cavs got cooked on post ups when switched, so unless you think Sexton is the Modern PG defender, A big being able to switch is only half of the puzzle.

So for me, I don't care if a big is able to switch or not if your whole team isn't equipped for it. What I care about is how much more efficient this player/this team is on offense compared to the other team's offense. For Zizic, a good coach should be able to find a scheme that fits him well because he got the tools to be good on D on certain schemes. And I still think he can become decent as a switch defender. He is got the length that Nance simply does not have to bother shooters.

This wasn't even our argument to begin with...all I argued was that there is a difference between centers and power forwards in the NBA today on teams. @CleveRocks had mentioned Davis; And sure, there are players that can play both positions and really don't have a position, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about front court pairings and the differences between them on the very same team.

You can view Davis as a C/PF, but who he was paired with had very clear position. Mirotic was a PF and Cousins was a Center. There is always one player who has to adjust that fits a position better because of the difference in functionality or limitation.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Don't really think so. Typical PF skills like ballhandling, passing, and outside shooting aren't less valuable at the center position, they're just harder to find. Similarly, typical center skills like elite rebounding and shot blocking aren't less valuable at the PF position, just harder to find. There's nothing to be gained by favoring players who fit traditional positional stereotypes. That's the great thing about basketball...many ways to be a great player, many ways to build a great team.

I'm not talking about what you wish to have in the NBA. I'm talking about what's currently in the NBA.

Ofcourse I want my Centers to be as tall as Yao, shoot like Klay, finish like Shaq, move like Sexton and handle the ball like Kyrie. Currently in the NBA, on average, there is a difference between centers and power forwards in functionality, physicality and skills.

You are always going to have to deal with your own team's and player's limitations, and on our team I view Nance in the long term as a power forward because he has limitations as a Center, and Zizic as Center because he has limitations as a PF.(And well, he can fucking excel as a Center)

 

[Nathan S]

I'm not talking about what you wish to have in the NBA. I'm talking about what's currently in the NBA.

Ofcourse I want my Centers to be as tall as Yao, shoot like Klay, finish like Shaq, move like Sexton and handle the ball like Kyrie. Currently in the NBA, on average, there is a difference between centers and power forwards in functionality, physicality and skills.

You are always going to have to deal with your own team's and player's limitations, and on our team I view Nance in the long term as a power forward because he has limitations as a Center and Zizic as limitations as a PF.

Center seems like just a word for "the guy who's the best interior defender on the court." If you're willing to sacrifice interior defense, then Nance can be a center, Love can be a center, even Ariza can be a center. On the flip side, if you're prioritizing defense at the expense of offensive versatility, I don't see why a guy like Zizic can't play PF. Both sort of meaningless labels when it comes down to it, IMO.

 

[TitleTown]

Can Nance take advantage of a switch? Can he post up? Can Nance finish at an elite level among the trees? unless he gets a lob pass on occasion which is much tougher against starting Cs than against PFs or Backups. Nance can not be a high volume scorer without developing his range...he will just not have a ton of scoring opportunities. Defenders will continue to bump him on rolls and tall defenders will continue to block his lobbing radius. He needs to learn how to attack in the short roll. He already showed willingness and passing ability @ short roll, so his next step is to be able to attack efficiently as a scorer.

Now, another reason why I want him to develop range is because I see his potential as someone who is able to punish closeouts from behind the 3pt line either as a finisher or as a passer.

Defensively, he will get bullied against top tier Centers.

Nance can guard 1-5 in theory, but as far as limiting their shooting efficiency he has been sub par. Where was his switching ability in the finals? he got cooked. Nance gets his value on D from his ability to generate steals and rebound the ball. Sure he can switch as well, but he isn't going to shut down alone or limit them to their below average efficiency.

"Modern NBA big" is someone that can switch 1-5, protect the rim and shoot the 3 right? So Nance does not switch effectively 1-5 yet, he does not protect the rim all that well because he lacks size and he does not shoot 3's yet. So he may be further a long, but what does it matter if he doesn't do any of those 3 things very well?

Why are we chasing this modern NBA big man archetype? is that a rule that I missed? To be able to switch, you also need your PG defender to be able to rebound the ball and battle the post and limit post scoring efficiency. Cavs got cooked on post ups when switched, so unless you think Sexton is the Modern PG defender, A big being able to switch is only half of the puzzle.

So for me, I don't care if a big is able to switch or not if your whole team isn't equipped for it. What I care about is how much more efficient this player/this team is on offense compared to the other team's offense. For Zizic, a good coach should be able to find a scheme that fits him well because he got the tools to be good on D on certain schemes. And I still think he can become decent as a switch defender. He is got the length that Nance simply does not have to bother shooters.

This wasn't even our argument to begin with...all I argued was that there is a difference between centers and power forwards in the NBA today on teams. @CleveRocks had mentioned Davis; And sure, there are players that can play both positions and really don't have a position, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about front court pairings and the differences between them on the very same team.

You can view Davis as a C/PF, but who he was paired with had very clear position. Mirotic was a PF and Cousins was a Center. There is always one player who has to adjust that fits a position better because of the difference in functionality or limitation.

I'm not sure I care about the C/PF debate anymore, so I don't want to keep that part of the conversation going. We fundamentally disagree, and there's no reason to continue to distract the thread (my fault for that).

So, for Zizic and Nance (since this is a Nance thread), we agree that they both have limitations, and probably can't be on the floor together except for specific matchups/scenarios. Right? This could change in the future, but for now I'm saying this based on their respective game as they are right now.

I think our best lineup right now (and in the near future) would be Sexton, Hood/Korver, Cedi, Love, Nance, but I would not start Nance. I like the idea of starting Zizic next to Love, but playing Larry down the stretch during crunch time (when teams are likely playing small). Zizic could take the lions share of minutes against more traditional "big" men, and Nance could play the small ball center letting Love work at the PF.

So, I think Nance is mostly a "center" (as you define it) and I don't see that changing. He may very well develop a corner 3 and elbow jumper, but I don't see him or Zizic ever sharing the court. They are both "centers" who play based on matchups with other big men, and sometimes when matchups call for it, share the court together.

Since Nance is more versatile on defense (for now, and I hope Zizic proves me wrong!), he probably is the better overall player right now, but Zizic has more offensive tools. This offseason could say a lot. Whichever player adds more to their game between now and the start of the season could get the nod over the other player as our go to "crunch time" center. For now, I think Nance is ahead, but only by a small margin.

 

[Jordan]

I'm not sure I care about the C/PF debate anymore, so I don't want to keep that part of the conversation going. We fundamentally disagree, and there's no reason to continue to distract the thread (my fault for that).

So, for Zizic and Nance (since this is a Nance thread), we agree that they both have limitations, and probably can't be on the floor together except for specific matchups/scenarios. Right? This could change in the future, but for now I'm saying this based on their respective game as they are right now.

I think our best lineup right now (and in the near future) would be Sexton, Hood/Korver, Cedi, Love, Nance, but I would not start Nance. I like the idea of starting Zizic next to Love, but playing Larry down the stretch during crunch time (when teams are likely playing small). Zizic could take the lions share of minutes against more traditional "big" men, and Nance could play the small ball center letting Love work at the PF.

So, I think Nance is mostly a "center" (as you define it) and I don't see that changing. He may very well develop a corner 3 and elbow jumper, but I don't see him or Zizic ever sharing the court. They are both "centers" who play based on matchups with other big men, and sometimes when matchups call for it, share the court together.

Since Nance is more versatile on defense (for now, and I hope Zizic proves me wrong!), he probably is the better overall player right now, but Zizic has more offensive tools. This offseason could say a lot. Whichever player adds more to their game between now and the start of the season could get the nod over the other player as our go to "crunch time" center. For now, I think Nance is ahead, but only by a small margin.

This is a good discussion and I won't get too involved, but...

I actually think that Zizic can destroy teams that play smaller/without a traditional center. His footwork is great in the post, and when he eventually can be a playmaker down low, small-ball teams will need to play a traditional center to slow down our offense.