Let's Talk about Jesus Christ, Creation, and Whether You Believe or Not

[gourimoko]

Ok, what’s the answer?

Can you please convince me otherwise? Gravity, Fibonacci, natural log, all this stuff. You think it is just random?

Yes, it's absolutely random.

The answer to this question largely deals with how the universe came into being. The Big Bang and Inflation. The creation of the Universe does not require that all of the material (in the form of matter/radiation) in it at present need exist at the point of or "prior to" the Big Bang. This is where people get confused... They think about the Big Bang as some massive explosion, moving all the material in the Universe outward, but that's not actually an accurate description.

I will try my best to simplify my answer to keep this as concise as possible (which will make this inaccurate, but just trying to be brief here), but to do that we have to understand one trait of "reality" that persists regardless of the topology of empty space, and that trait is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This aspect of reality, loosely means that a total non-existence does not really exist.

That is to say, there is no such thing, and never has been such a thing, as "emptiness" or complete "void." While there was (probably) not a contiguous, spatially and causally connected space-time (a universe) prior to the Big Bang (from our relative perspective at least).

This entails that reality is filled with a constant soup of energy, of debatable proportion, relatively speaking, but we can measure this energy and it has very real-world effects -- yes, it is observable.

This energy, and the variance in it, is sufficient within inflationary cosmology to be the seeding material for a Big Bang and a following Inflationary epoch.

This inflationary effect is a runaway process, where, you end up with spatially and causally connected regions across an infinite landscape of universes, all with infinitely varying and different physical laws.

From here we need to understand that these regions of vacuum are not necessarily stable. Think of a ball wobbling on a hill with a constantly shifting (in all directions) wild pushing on it. Eventually, it will fall over the side of the hill and "roll-down." This is an analogy, of course, but it's effectively a phase shift between a higher energy state and a lower energy state. This phase shift is expressed as a massive increase in thermal energy and radiation within the universe and this is where essentially all of the matter and energy in the universe comes from -- not from some pre-Big Bang era.

This isn't magic.. We see this in quantum mechanics ALL THE TIME. It's a fundamental property of reality.

So this is how you (1) get all the matter and energy in the universe, and (2) how the universe seems fine-tuned for life but really isn't. The short-hand answer for #2 is called the Anthropic Principle, but, essentially, life only exists where it can -- so naturally, any observer who can ask the question would find himself in a universe where life could exist. Since all possible universes might exist, it stands to reason that life was/is inevitable somewhere given the natural consequences of inflationary cosmology.

Effectively, it's like a Nomadic Bedouin or a Berber living for generations near an oasis in the desert. Is that really surprising at all? Not really.. They live where it's possible to live. The universe is not fine-tuned, it's simply exceptionally large and completely random.

 

[Skyscraper]

I can't tell if this dude is trolling all of us or not.

Why would I troll.. What purpose does it serve to "troll" as forum users say? Im here to share and speak. If sharing personal testimony which is 100% true trolling, then you may have the wrong definition of trolling.

 

[gourimoko]

See, this is where you go wrong. All of those things are observable. Whatever is in this world is observable. Yes. It doesnt matter if it is observed with microscopes, or other methods of observation, they are observable. And THAT is science.

Once you step outside of the boundaries of observation, you exit science and enter theoreticals.

Well, then fine.. I agree that science deals with the observable.. I don't really understand what you mean by "theoreticals" though, science tests theories all the time.

Nonetheless, you still haven't told me what you disagree with about my assertion.

I am presenting a case as to how the Universe came to be. I have evidence to back up my case. Is it not reasonable to let us weigh the evidence for my case (anti-Creation) against yours (Creation) and see which one has the preponderance of evidence?

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

Success isnt measured by material things. All these things come and go. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Jesus Christ my LORD said to not store up treasures in earth where moths can destroy and burglars break in and steal. But rather, store up treasures in heaven, where moth cant destroy nor burglar steal. But treasures in heaven are eternal. Amen.

Therefore, success is measured by spiritual gains. You speak of money, you speak of a house, you speak of a degree, but you neglect, peace, joy, happiness, that void that you sought your entire life to fill, is still void, and no degree, no money, no possession can fill that.

Now, you can lie to me, but you can not lie to God. He knows the matters of the heart. There is no such thing as a secret from God. Amen.

Why is it more wealthy people commit suicide?

Ok let me rephrase it:

I've never been arrested ever, I'm not suicidal. I worked hard for a career that fulfills me which allows me to own a house and live in my own peaceful corner of the world.

Basically what I was trying to say was I didn't need a belief in God to accomplish these things. I believed in myself and my own morals. In your own words you needed your belief in God to save you from being a criminal with no future.

Which is great, I'm glad you got your life together, but I don't need a belief in a higher power to not mess up my life. I can be a good person purely on my own merits without a crutch scaring me to do so.

 

[Real Deal]

So what happens when we die, loved ones that came and gone we see no more? It's a black vision for all eternity? Our 'soul' truly doesn't exist? Where does our energy go?

Non existence is a very scary thought

 

[gourimoko]

So what happens when we die, loved ones that came and gone we see no more? It's a black vision for all eternity? Our 'soul' truly doesn't exist? Where does our energy go?

Non existence is a very scary thought

How'd you feel before you were born?

EDIT: And.. I understand what you're trying to say; I honestly do.. but try thinking about it from a different perspective.

 

[Real Deal]

How'd you feel before you were born?

EDIT: And.. I understand what you're trying to say; I honestly do.. but try thinking about it from a different perspective.

Ummm, non existence

 

[gourimoko]

Ummm, non existence

Right.. and it didn't hurt, or wasn't really painful right?

Think about the alternative. If you really play out the alternative; non-existence might not be so bad.

But this is a topic that gives many people panic attacks/anxiety attacks, so, maybe you shouldn't play it out in your head.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

Right.. and it didn't hurt, or wasn't really painful right?

Think about the alternative. If you really play out the alternative; non-existence might not be so bad.

But this is a topic that gives many people panic attacks/anxiety attacks, so, maybe you shouldn't play it out in your head.

The best way I've heard it is that you don't remember and didn't worry about the first 14 billions years of the universe, the rest of existence will go by in the blink of an eye when we're gone.

 

[gourimoko]

The best way I've heard it is that you don't remember and didn't worry about the first 14 billions years of the universe, the rest of existence will go by in the blink of an eye when we're gone.

Or you start over again... I mean, who is to say this is the first go around rather than the billionth? Who is to say we're not in a simulation?

I'm not of the mind that the universe is in anyway special or unique in nature; which leads me to believe that neither am I; which leads me to believe something very very similar to what is happening right now, has happened before, and will likely happen again.

 

[Real Deal]

Right.. and it didn't hurt, or wasn't really painful right?

Think about the alternative. If you really play out the alternative; non-existence might not be so bad.

But this is a topic that gives many people panic attacks/anxiety attacks, so, maybe you shouldn't play it out in your head.

This is why people believe there is some kind of something after death, you know. People don't wanna hear about non existence, they like heaven, angels, Jesus, God, etc. I for one want to think there is something after death, because when you lost many family members like I have, you want to think you're going to see them again.

I understand people that believe in their beliefs, I understand how people call it a fairytale too. I'm open minded about all this stuff.

 

[gourimoko]

This is why people believe there is some kind of something after death, you know.

I know.

People don't wanna hear about non existence, they like heaven, angels, Jesus, God, etc. I for one want to think there is something after death, because when you lost many family members like I have, you want to think you're going to see them again.

I agree. I want to think so too.

I understand people that believe in their beliefs, I understand how people call it a fairytale too. I'm open minded about all this stuff.

Same here!

 

[The Oi]

I think “peace” is something human beings get fixated on that they shouldn’t.

Human beings evolved from creatures that had to survive in pretty scary times, fight or flight situations fairly often. And being peaceful would have done them no good. It would have gotten them eaten by an animal or killed by another ape- human in their sleep.

The inner turmoil we experience should be used to better ourselves. Train for a marathon, read 20 books, learn violin, learn piano and teach your kid to play piano, learn to code in the middle of your life, buy a franchise...just become better and make those around you (especially your kids) better.

I just think people who are incapable of peace get so fixated on this thing that doesn’t really exist except in short spurts after you’ve done something exhausting...like the things I’ve described above.

Perhaps being one with God works as well. I wouldn’t know. But again...if you become one with God and find you’re still seeking something else...go out (or stay inside depending on the thing) and do something. And keep doing things. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It just means you’re human and evolved from much tougher humans.

And FWIW...I know a fair amount of people who are pretty spiritual/religious/etc...and none of them seem to be totally at peace. They all seem to have problems of their own.

I don’t hold it against them and I don’t give them shit about it. I just don’t think they’re any better or worse off than me, the agnostic guy who isn’t at peace either but who finds a great deal of joy in my wife, son and in laws and always tries to find things in life that can make my son and I better as human beings.

 

[Man Called X]

Or you start over again... I mean, who is to say this is the first go around rather than the billionth? Who is to say we're not in a simulation?

I'm not of the mind that the universe is in anyway special or unique in nature; which leads me to believe that neither am I; which leads me to believe something very very similar to what is happening right now, has happened before, and will likely happen again.

This isn't Star Ocean. There is no 4th Dimension.

 

[Skyscraper]

Well, then fine.. I agree that science deals with the observable.. I don't really understand what you mean by "theoreticals" though, science tests theories all the time.

Nonetheless, you still haven't told me what you disagree with about my assertion.

I am presenting a case as to how the Universe came to be. I have evidence to back up my case. Is it not reasonable to let us weigh the evidence for my case (anti-Creation) against yours (Creation) and see which one has the preponderance of evidence?

Exactly. Science deals with the observable.

If it has never been observed, yet claimed, it is a theory... Such as the Big Bang THEORY for example. This has never ever been proven to be true. And any man that claims it is proven is really trying to convince their self of something that they know it not true.

None of this is random. Look around. Look. OBSERVE. Where do you see randomness? Anywhere? If you were to be honest, you will see order and structure in existence everywhere... Just look at your body. Its safe to say that nothing but randomness put together the extremely complex design of the human anatomy? Thats just ONE molecule in all of creation. Everything is in order by intelligent design.... Just like your phone, your TV, planes, trains, and automobiles.. everything is designed with great intellect. What makes man any different? Trees? Plants? Oxygen? Everything needs each other, yet, this is all a bunch of randomness? You are kidding nobody but yourself if you say you believe this.

Lets look the simplicity of a seed.. It is so small and plain to sight.. but it is everything but....

A simple seed... if you plant it, give it water, oxygen, and over time, it grows and gives shelter to animals, man, it gives food, oxygen, paper, etc etc etc... and that seed of that tree comes from itself to multiply just as God commanded it to do.

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:11-12)

Amen.

Therefore, my faith rests peacefully with an almighty, all-knowing, and all powerful God KNOWING the truth of the matters that men seek day and night to know, yet remain in darkness.

Because Jesus Christ is the light of the world and I am now found in Him, I too, will walk in light knowing the truth just as He is the truth, Amen.