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Let's Talk about Jesus Christ, Creation, and Whether You Believe or Not

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I think “peace” is something human beings get fixated on that they shouldn’t.
That is your opinion, but is it an honest opinion..

What is it that men seek after? It all boils down to peace and joy. Amen.
 
Like Gouri spoke of, there are so many billions in this world, who's to say we don't come back? It's insane at the levels of existence and the world keeps spinning, people keep getting created, it's absolutely amazing thinking about the circle of life.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a start over process. Crazy to think about for a damn sure.
 
Yes, it's absolutely random.

The answer to this question largely deals with how the universe came into being. The Big Bang and Inflation. The creation of the Universe does not require that all of the material (in the form of matter/radiation) in it at present need exist at the point of or "prior to" the Big Bang. This is where people get confused... They think about the Big Bang as some massive explosion, moving all the material in the Universe outward, but that's not actually an accurate description.

I will try my best to simplify my answer to keep this as concise as possible (which will make this inaccurate, but just trying to be brief here), but to do that we have to understand one trait of "reality" that persists regardless of the topology of empty space, and that trait is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This aspect of reality, loosely means that a total non-existence does not really exist.

That is to say, there is no such thing, and never has been such a thing, as "emptiness" or complete "void." While there was (probably) not a contiguous, spatially and causally connected space-time (a universe) prior to the Big Bang (from our relative perspective at least).

This entails that reality is filled with a constant soup of energy, of debatable proportion, relatively speaking, but we can measure this energy and it has very real-world effects -- yes, it is observable.

This energy, and the variance in it, is sufficient within inflationary cosmology to be the seeding material for a Big Bang and a following Inflationary epoch.

This inflationary effect is a runaway process, where, you end up with spatially and causally connected regions across an infinite landscape of universes, all with infinitely varying and different physical laws.

From here we need to understand that these regions of vacuum are not necessarily stable. Think of a ball wobbling on a hill with a constantly shifting (in all directions) wild pushing on it. Eventually, it will fall over the side of the hill and "roll-down." This is an analogy, of course, but it's effectively a phase shift between a higher energy state and a lower energy state. This phase shift is expressed as a massive increase in thermal energy and radiation within the universe and this is where essentially all of the matter and energy in the universe comes from -- not from some pre-Big Bang era.

This isn't magic.. We see this in quantum mechanics ALL THE TIME. It's a fundamental property of reality.

So this is how you (1) get all the matter and energy in the universe, and (2) how the universe seems fine-tuned for life but really isn't. The short-hand answer for #2 is called the Anthropic Principle, but, essentially, life only exists where it can -- so naturally, any observer who can ask the question would find himself in a universe where life could exist. Since all possible universes might exist, it stands to reason that life was/is inevitable somewhere given the natural consequences of inflationary cosmology.

Effectively, it's like a Nomadic Bedouin or a Berber living for generations near an oasis in the desert. Is that really surprising at all? Not really.. They live where it's possible to live. The universe is not fine-tuned, it's simply exceptionally large and completely random.

But, who's to say "where life can exist?"

If life adapted to the conditions on earth, who's to say it couldn't adapt and evolve to be able to live in more "exreme" conditions and temperatures? This is one thing that I've wondered about for a while now.
 

Hmm, agree, disagree, what?

Gouri he mentioned the before born feeling and the hot button of 'non existence'
 
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Like Gouri spoke of, there are so many billions in this world, who's to say we don't come back? It's insane at the levels of existence and the world keeps spinning, people keep getting created, it's absolutely amazing thinking about the circle of life.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a start over process. Crazy to think about for a damn sure.

Deja Vu anyone???

Would be awesome if you could start over, subconsciously knowing all the mistakes you made in your previous run. Which would lead you to fine tuning your life each and every time.

IDK. I think about weird shit.
 
But, who's to say "where life can exist?"

If life adapted to the conditions on earth, who's to say it couldn't adapt and evolve to be able to live in more "exreme" conditions and temperatures? This is one thing that I've wondered about for a while now.
Exactly. A point I like to make.

If ALL of this randomness just fell into place by happenstance, then why hasnt it just fallen into place with such perfection anywhere else?

If this was all random, why isnt there other sex's? Why dont we have arms growing out of our heads and arms from our backs, etc.

Yet, we have this crazy thing called a reproductive system! Which takes the order of MAN AND WOMAN to utilize in multiplying! And the complexity of this system is light-years and years beyond the complexity of any system a coach can implement!

WHAT A GOD! WHAT A GOD!!!
 
"The evolution of the world can be compared to a display of fireworks that has just ended: some few red wisps, ashes and smoke. Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the slow fading of the suns, and we try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of worlds."

- Georges Lemaître
 
Deja Vu anyone???

Would be awesome if you could start over, subconsciously knowing all the mistakes you made in your previous run. Which would lead you to fine tuning your life each and every time.

IDK. I think about weird shit.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27)

Glad to break it to ya! There is no such thing as reincarnation! We live once, then its heaven or hell for all eternity! Eternal punishment or everlasting life! (Matthew 25:46) Amen.
 
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27)

Glad to break it to ya! There is no such thing as reincarnation! We live once, then its heaven or hell for all eternity! Eternal punishment or everlasting life! (Matthew 25:46) Amen.

If God is so great and loves all of his children, why would he allow any of them to suffer for all of eternity?

This god sounds evil to me.
 
Exactly. Science deals with the observable.

If it has never been observed, yet claimed, it is a theory... Such as the Big Bang THEORY for example. This has never ever been proven to be true. And any man that claims it is proven is really trying to convince their self of something that they know it not true.

But we can observe the effects of the Big Bang and infer it's truth logically.

We just had this conversation, remember? We infer the existence of subatomic particles, we can't see them. We infer the existence of gravity, and we have never seen a graviton. You misunderstand the term "observable." We are observing the effects of a thing to derive it's existence.

For example, if a tree fall in a forest -- remember that? Well, we can infer that when it hit the ground, air was moved, leaves were blown about, the ground shook, and "sound" was made. We haven't seen it for ourselves, and yet, we can infer the it's existence from the logical consequences of the events.

This is fundamental logic and inference is required for reason, it's required for mathematics, science, and simply forming basic understandings about many abstract concepts.

Now, from my point of view, it seems that your argument largely relies on an attempt debase and delegitimize science, even to redefine it, in order to draw (false) equivalence between faith and scientific theory and understanding. I say that because you've insofar avoided everything I've put to you by claiming science itself is somehow useless to the question at hand. Am I wrong here?

None of this is random. Look around. Look. OBSERVE. Where do you see randomness? Anywhere? If you were to be honest, you will see order and structure in existence everywhere...

Actually yes, I see randomness everywhere as well as structure. ALL of the structure you mention comes from the inflationary epoch where random quantum fluctuations created areas of higher and lower densities allowing for non-uniformity. This, in turn, is responsible for ALL structure in existence.

Structure, out of randomness.

Just look at your body. Its safe to say that nothing but randomness put together the extremely complex design of the human anatomy?

Yes, of course; by way of over a billion years of evolution.

Thats just ONE molecule in all of creation. Everything is in order by intelligent design.... Just like your phone, your TV, planes, trains, and automobiles.. everything is designed with great intellect. What makes man any different? Trees? Plants? Oxygen? Everything needs each other, yet, this is all a bunch of randomness? You are kidding nobody but yourself if you say you believe this.

Why is anything you've said actually true?

I can demonstrate to you, logically, scientifically, and mathematically the truth of my statements. What do you have to back up your claims? I'm asking you for evidence.

Have you even considered the argument that I've put to you? How has anything you've just said actually contradict the points I've made about the origin of the universe?

Lets look the simplicity of a seed.. It is so small and plain to sight.. but it is everything but....

A simple seed... if you plant it, give it water, oxygen, and over time, it grows and gives shelter to animals, man, it gives food, oxygen, paper, etc etc etc... and that seed of that tree comes from itself to multiply just as God commanded it to do.

I don't take the same meaning out of this that you do... Can you explain what you mean dispassionately?

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:11-12)

Amen.

This means nothing to me in the context of this conversation. Understand that I put absolutely no value whatsoever in these words when it comes to scientific understanding.

Therefore, my faith rests peacefully with an almighty, all-knowing, and all powerful God KNOWING the truth of the matters that men seek day and night to know, yet remain in darkness.

Because Jesus Christ is the light of the world and I am now found in Him, I too, will walk in light knowing the truth just as He is the truth, Amen.

That's great, but you haven't actually addressed anything I've said.

I've asked you to provide me some evidence. I'm offering you tons of evidence, and have more to offer still. I can explain what you think is magic, as simple consequences of the fundamental laws of nature. We can evaluate this logically, and rationally, or you can recite verses from the Bible and talk at me, rather than with me, and we can get nowhere.

You asked for a discussion; you laid out the rules; I'm asking you to keep to the point about "discussing" and "debating" this... That's fair right?
 
I'm sorry, but "Glad to break it to ya!" just doesn't sound like Matthew.

"Love must precede hatred, and nothing is hated save through being contrary to a suitable thing which is loved. And hence it is that every hatred is caused by love."

- Thomas Aquinas
 
If God is so great and loves all of his children, why would he allow any of them to suffer for all of eternity?

This god sounds evil to me.

You know what the answer is. God works in mysterious ways and who are we to understand his divine works?

I hope this answers your question. Any other questions you may have will also have this exact same answer.
 
Like Gouri spoke of, there are so many billions in this world, who's to say we don't come back? It's insane at the levels of existence and the world keeps spinning, people keep getting created, it's absolutely amazing thinking about the circle of life.

Maybe, just maybe, there's a start over process. Crazy to think about for a damn sure.

It's entirely possible.

If the universe were positively curved, I'd argue it'd be entirely probable that you and I (or versions of us for the sake of argument) have had this conversation before.
 

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