2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[godfather]

I stand by that. If you consider regular season wins successful then sure, but we'll see what happens in the playoffs. I don't expect them to make much noise.

Again, how is this detrimental to Kyrie Irving?

Let me ask you a question, do the Celtics have a roster, that's supposed to scare us?

Do you not agree, the Celtics have overachieved?

Is that not, again, a reason to argue WHY Kyrie has been successful as a number one guy, opposed to not, like you're suggesting?

Unless I missed where the Celtics are having 3 to 4 all-stars on it. Loaded with talent and experience up and down the roster.

 

[cavsfever]

This just makes no sense.

They have a better record that us. He's playing with no real all-star, oh, a fake one in Horford. A guy that'd never been an all-star if it wasn't for their record. I hate this shit, where a guy makes it just because the team is playing well.

Beside the point.

They're playing .700 basketball, how is that NOT being successful as a number one guy? Huh.... Just because they're NOT good enough to win a title? If that's the case, then is LeBron not successful with that analogy?

Or is it because as the best player on his team, can't beat a LeBron James team? Bro, it's LeBron, he's not supposed to be better than the best player on the planet.

I remember many, many, hot takes on here that Kyrie could NEVER even lead a team to the playoffs. Now he clearly has, he could never be successful as a number one guy, and has, but we're going back to this flimsy argument.

If you mean he could never win a title as the best player on a team. Probably not, I agree.

But how many players do you think can in this league? I don't think its many at all.

Guys like Harden, Westbrook, Paul, and Davis haven't even come close yet. Guys you might argue could have, but hey, they've not even come CLOSE. Whether fair, or foul...

Guys like Steph, Durant, Leonard, and even LeBron, maybe the only guys I'd say that can right now for sure. Have done it with a lot of loaded teams.

Kyrie Irving is a really fucking good player. I thought that when he was with us, and my opinion didn't change just because he left. He's demonstrating it again this year.

 

[MediumBaller]

Again, how is this detrimental to Kyrie Irving?

Let me ask you a question, do the Celtics have a roster, that's supposed to scare us?

Do you not agree, the Celtics have overachieved?

Is that not, again, a reason to argue WHY Kyrie has been successful as a number one guy, opposed to not, like you're suggesting?

Unless I missed where the Celtics are having 3 to 4 all-stars on it. Loaded with talent and experience up and down the roster.

What do you consider "successful" to mean in the NBA? The Hawks won 60 games in 2014/2015, and the Raptors won 56 games in 2015/2016, but I wouldn't really consider either of those seasons successful.

The Celtics have one of the best coaches in the league who has implemented a great system. They finished first in the conference last year with Isaiah freaking Thomas as the #1 guy. You could say that Boston has overachieved this year, but I believe that has more to do with Stevens than it does Kyrie. He's a phenomenal scorer but he's not a #1 guy on a successful (by that I mean championship contending) team, and I'm sticking with that opinion.

 

[Chris]

I don't see Kyrie Irving as a #1 guy on a team contending for a championship. At all. You generally need to be a two-way player for that.

 

[shoes22]

Whenever I see that Kyrie has a “wow” game like last night, I’m torn between being proud of him, and still bitter that he left the way he did.

 

[Cassity14]

What do you consider "successful" to mean in the NBA? The Hawks won 60 games in 2014/2015, and the Raptors won 56 games in 2015/2016, but I wouldn't really consider either of those seasons successful.

The Celtics have one of the best coaches in the league who has implemented a great system. They finished first in the conference last year with Isaiah freaking Thomas as the #1 guy. You could say that Boston has overachieved this year, but I believe that has more to do with Stevens than it does Kyrie. He's a phenomenal scorer but he's not a #1 guy on a successful (by that I mean championship contending) team, and I'm sticking with that opinion.

So if teams that had great regular seasons and advanced all the way to the conference finals aren't successful, only making the NBA finals is?

 

[MediumBaller]

So if teams that had great regular seasons and advanced all the way to the conference finals aren't successful, only making the NBA finals is?

That's why I'm asking what people's barometer for success is. The Hawks got swept in the ECF after their great regular season. The Raptors lost by a combined 114 points in the ECF after their great regular season. The Cavs' season last year ultimately didn't really feel like a success since we got swept, and if we don't make it back this year then the season won't feel like a success either.

 

[Cavatt]

Not winning the championship being a failure is a pretty high standard.

The real argument here is that they had this success without Kyrie and with a lesser player. Winning a playoff series against a tough opponent would make the Celtics a success IMO. They are not looked at as a finished product for good reason with draft picks and a star likely coming back from a bad injury next year.

The only time worse to be a near contending team is prob during Celtics Lakers rivalry.

 

[Cassity14]

That's why I'm asking what people's barometer for success is. The Hawks got swept in the ECF after their great regular season. The Raptors lost by a combined 114 points in the ECF after their great regular season. The Cavs' season last year ultimately didn't really feel like a success since we got swept, and if we don't make it back this year then the season won't feel like a success either.

Well, I think what a team measures as a successful season varies by team, but since we're looking for arbitrary ways to evaluate whether certain players can be the best player on a 'successful team', their needs to be continuity for the sake of the discussion.

There are two teams in the entire NBA that would say losing in the finals isn't a successful season - the Warriors and the Cavs. If that's the barometer you want to use, then every single other player in the league fits your definition of "can't be the best player on a successful team" outside of LeBron, Durant, and Curry. I think that's incredibly short-sighted.

I would absolutely call those Hawks and Raptors teams successful. If the Celtics don't lose to anyone besides LeBron this season, I would absolutely call them successful. Whoever the Cavs beat in the ECF will have had a successful season. If Houston loses to GS in the WCF, they had a successful season.

I have no interest in pretending that teams who make conference finals series didn't have a great season.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

^All of the above is true, and for the sake of discussion a simple designation should be made: a successful team vs. a title-contending team.

Allowing for that, I'd say that I agree with those asserting that Kyrie can't be the #1 guy on a legit title-contending team.

 

[Cassity14]

^All of the above is true, and for the sake of discussion a simple designation should be made: a successful team vs. a title-contending team.

Allowing for that, I'd say that I agree with those asserting that Kyrie can't be the #1 guy on a legit title-contending team.

I used to feel this way, but this season is changing my mind.

Unless the Cavs move the BKN pick for an all-star, I think Boston will win the east next season provided they are healthy, and Kyrie will be their best player.

People here will swear up and down that Hayward is the best player on the team or some shit, but that ship has sailed, IMO. Kyrie is putting up amazing numbers without another top level threat on his team.

 

[MediumBaller]

I used to feel this way, but this season is changing my mind.

Unless the Cavs move the BKN pick for an all-star, I think Boston will win the east next season provided they are healthy, and Kyrie will be their best player.

People here will swear up and down that Hayward is the best player on the team or some shit, but that ship has sailed, IMO. Kyrie is putting up amazing numbers without another top level threat on his team.

I wouldn't call his numbers this year amazing. He's basically the same player he was here. His shooting is a little better, and his assists are a little lower. His PER and TS% are both lower than IT's last year.

^All of the above is true, and for the sake of discussion a simple designation should be made: a successful team vs. a title-contending team.

Allowing for that, I'd say that I agree with those asserting that Kyrie can't be the #1 guy on a legit title-contending team.

Yeah I'll rephrase. "Successful team" is too arbitrary to debate. Kyrie isn't the #1 option on a title-contending team is what I mean.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I wish Marcus Smart would have been a Cavalier. And he was so gettable too.

Terry Rozier would have been very nice too.

Bah.

 

[Cassity14]

I wouldn't call his numbers this year amazing. He's basically the same player he was here. His shooting is a little better, and his assists are a little lower. His PER and TS% are both lower than IT's last year.


Yeah I'll rephrase. "Successful team" is too arbitrary to debate. Kyrie isn't the #1 option on a title-contending team is what I mean.

He's the same player he was in his very best season here. His offensive numbers are elite, and there is no longer the argument that LeBron is drawing attention away from him.

Given his team's success and his role in it, I think it's pretty easy to call this the best season of his career to date.

Irving has proved throughout this season that he's one of the best offensive players in basketball and is capable of leading his team to a great record as its best player. He's also shown the leadership ability that many thought to be completely absent - myself included.

All of the negative things being said about him in the offseason (myself included) look silly now. The result is everyone moving the goalposts about what he has to do to get credit, which is ingenuous.

Unless the Cavs get another all-star in the next two years, the Celtics will be playing in the NBA finals with Kyrie as their best player.

 

[ChicagoCavFan]

I've found myself curious to hear what Celts fans think if KI as compared to IT. They obviously all had hard-ons for IT last year, believing that he was better than KI on his best day. I wonder what those same fans think of each player now....