Racial Tension in the U.S.

[Kouki]

Thought this could use it's own topic, because shit is really going to start hitting the fan I think.

Five BLM activists were shot by supposed white supremacists last night in Minneapolis, at a protest for the death of Jamar Clark, who was killed by police on Nov 15th. All five activists who were shot are going to be OK. The police story was that Jamar was interfering with policework, or EMS work, or something. They currently hold footage of the incident.

A few days earlier I believe, videos were posted of white, armed supremacists in their car talking about disrupting the protests.

http://www.citypages.com/news/armed...n-protesters-at-4th-precinct-shutdown-7847606

One particular news story on the incident. I'm really just posting this one because of the comment section. My god is it bad.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mi...shot-near-protest-scene/ar-BBnnmd4?li=BBnb7Kz

 

[KB]

The comment section on most sites is bad, Reddit's isn't to much better though there is one post that was intriguing (haven't read the linked info to determine for myself if the person is right or talking out their ass)

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/3u1msj/several_people_were_shot_at_black_lives_matter/cxb7907

itssexytime 287 points 7 hours ago*

That's not just it. I've been following all of Unicorn Riot (main BLM livestreamer recently) live stream tonight, among multiple others. I have two clips of the same testimony you described in your parent post, then a girl shouted for every witness to converge with her and Unicorn riot departed.

After this, the story started to change and now the post-gathering testimonies are saying that the shooters attacked first and that is the clip that journalists such as Ben Norton of Salon are reporting on.

This is terrible that this happened, but watching a faulty narrative get crafted before your very eyes on live stream is pretty infuriating.

I also have a clip of after where a protester was calling for the killing of white people and the raping/killing of white babies, with overwhelming approval from those around to hear that.

When I shared the initial testimony with a journalist on Twitter, I was called a white supremacist and a troll. From a legitimate journalist. What is going on anymore? Does nobody care about the truth, or is it just one big narrative-crafting party? Regardless, I'll try to compile all of this together tonight.

EDIT: here is the testimony pre-convergence View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3-XIGJZMEI&feature=youtu.be


Here is the first testimony I sawView: https://twitter.com/mickynoir/status/669022879657435136


Here is a video via RT of a crowd chasing the shooters View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS3di5XS8l8&feature=youtu.be


EDIT 2: here is a video of the initial confrontation.View: https://twitter.com/schirber/status/669035788168855552
Not sure why that guy said "put that phone up," that could have been more valuable footage.

here is the whole thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/3u1msj/several_people_were_shot_at_black_lives_matter/

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

That story is horrible, and I hope they catch the shooters. Full stop.

That being said, the logical extension of the BLM movement is what is happening on campuses right now. And some folks are so invested in having their victim-status recognized that there has been an increasing number of "racial incidents" that have actually been perpetrated by minorities to generate sympathy/outrage.

Most of the time, if the deception is discovered at all, it isn't until much later when it has already affected opinions.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/27/fake-hate-crimes-continue-to-plague-campuses/

http://www.fakehatecrimes.org/

 

[gourimoko]

That story is horrible, and I hope they catch the shooters. Full stop.

That being said, the logical extension of the BLM movement is what is happening on campuses right now. And some folks are so invested in having their victim-status recognized that there has been an increasing number of "racial incidents" that have actually been perpetrated by minorities to generate sympathy/outrage.

Most of the time, if the deception is discovered at all, it isn't until much later when it has already affected opinions.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/27/fake-hate-crimes-continue-to-plague-campuses/

http://www.fakehatecrimes.org/

So Q-Tip enters the conversation with "fake hate crimes."

Tell me what you really think...

 

[gourimoko]

My only problem with any of this is why do some everyday White people have a problem with BLM?

It doesn't address White in particular, it's not against White people, I'm not sure I understand how some White everyday people, particularly conservatives, derive vitriol against this movement when it doesn't speak to or against them as a group.

Sometimes it comes off almost as if someone were to say "know your place."

Yes, I understand there are some more radical elements to BLM that are racially antagonistic, but I don't think that's even remotely representative of most people who support the cause. I think most everyone acknowledges this as well. Which again, kind of confuses me...

 

[Kouki]

Some of it is plain-old "know your place" racism.

Some of it is just plain ignorance of facts. Some is ignorance in general, and a complete lack of empathy (the "privilege").

Some is "well you don't care when blacks kill blacks, why do you care so much more when whites kill blacks?"

As an "everyday white person" I can certainly empathize with their cause, and though I do not like the extremism, I suppose I can understand why they feel the need to do it.

And when I say extremism I mean stuff like them saying "kill all white people and rape their babies". And of course not all of them, certainly only a select few of them are saying stuff like that. But if that sort of rhetoric gains momentum then we are looking at a full-on race war.

I want to avoid victim blaming here, but they are certainly adding fuel to the fire. Which, to some extent, is by design. It isn't, and shouldn't be, the BLM's responsibility to make common racists less racist. It's just an unfortunate consequence that a lot of the things that BLM is doing is validating racism in the eyes of the racists. Is that a necessary consequence? I don't know, probably. I felt dirty even typing that.

I just wish people would get along. Fuck racists.

I know he has bigger things to deal with right now, like a potential World War 3, but this is probably a good opportunity for Obama to bring people together.

 

[Soda]

Yes, I understand there are some more radical elements to BLM that are racially antagonistic, but I don't think that's even remotely representative of most people who support the cause. I think most everyone acknowledges this as well. Which again, kind of confuses me...

It's a battle of headlines. I think both sides honestly feel victimized by the quick processing of headlines and narratives and they lash back without taking a step back and taking a deep breath. I also think that while you see racially antagonistic elements as a very small minority of cases, the headline battling has some easy-to-influence folks on both sides rushing to judgment. In the case of the antagonistic elements of the movement, white people.

 

[MalTalm]

The problem with any civilian protests are the outliers: Most cops aren't racist killers, and most BLM protesters aren't people trying to antagonize or ratchet up tensions. But there are racist cops, or maybe more accurately IMO police who get too drunk in their authority, who are more likely to clash with a modern ideology that refuses to acquiesce to those who want to be obeyed/ respected regardless of the legal right to demand so. There are also BLM protesters who want to make headlines and be involved in a movement for the wrong reasons.

IMO, the truth is there is a serious underlying issue at hand: We have a very poor system for identifying and eliminating racism or police abuse in the system. The police unions tend to be very strong, and always back an officer even when they are in the wrong. That means even good departments have a hard time expelling bad characters, and at best they get re-assigned to poorer communities who don't give a shit about police conduct. The system is rigged to protect officers, and we have no unbiased 3rd party to actually track issues. I've said it before, but so long as policing remains a community for-profit affair, there will be plenty of areas with significant corruption in the system, it's human nature.

I absolutely understand why there is a BLM movement, and it's not unwarranted. I also understand why people are reflexive to fight against it, and not necessarily out of racism: Most of the time, police are doing things beneficial to the community. But there absolutely needs to be some level of checks and balances on the system. This is a "Who watches the Watchmen?" type affair. If the police are in charge of policing themselves, how would that not result in bias?

 

[KB]

My only problem with any of this is why do some everyday White people have a problem with BLM?

It doesn't address White in particular, it's not against White people, I'm not sure I understand how some White everyday people, particularly conservatives, derive vitriol against this movement when it doesn't speak to or against them as a group.

Sometimes it comes off almost as if someone were to say "know your place."

Yes, I understand there are some more radical elements to BLM that are racially antagonistic, but I don't think that's even remotely representative of most people who support the cause. I think most everyone acknowledges this as well. Which again, kind of confuses me...

The whole thing confuses me too.

I've always been a person who interacts with people based on the content of their character and nothing else. I think it should be this way for every interaction including those in the judicial / legal system.

After being asked my personal and explaining this personal stance to someone who is really supportive of BLM I was told recently that I was racist for having this view (blew my mind tbh). They told me i was racist for this view because it is an example of white privilege.

The person didn't give me any example or explanation as to how it qualified as such but it just did. It struck me as ironic considering who submitted this idea as the most logical and fair way to interact with people.

I think a lot of the confusion has to do with the narrative that the media is pushing because they are pushing whatever narrative gets the most attention.

 

[KI4MVP]

My only problem with any of this is why do some everyday White people have a problem with BLM?

The problems people have come from a few places

1 - the fake incidents, like the claim the university president ran into the black student when video evidence later showed that to be complete BS. Faking incidents only harms the BLM movement. Instead of condemning a faker like Jonathan Butler, he get praised.

2 - the growing hatred towards all police officers over the actions of a few that has led to some of them being randomly murdered.

Murdering police only escalates the situation as it makes them more concerned with threats to their safety when they are doing their job which will cause some of them to fire their weapon sooner rather than later at a perceived threat.

I don't know who would even want to be a police officer today.

3 - there is also the issue that the victims of so many of these high profile cases are people resisting arrest and likely could have been avoided completely had they not done that, yet there isn't any call for people to stop doing that. This doesn't excuse the officers who acted inappropriately, but there is a reason resisting arrest is itself considered a crime.

 

[MalTalm]

The problems people have come from a few places

1 - the fake incidents, like the claim the university president ran into the black student when video evidence later showed that to be complete BS. Faking incidents only harms the BLM movement.

2 - the growing hatred towards all police officers over the actions of a few that has led to some of them being randomly murdered.

Murdering police only escalates the situation as it makes them more concerned with threats to their safety when they are doing their job which will cause some of them to fire their weapon sooner rather than later at a perceived threat.

I don't know who would even want to be a police officer today.

3 - there is also the issue that the victims of so many of these high profile cases are people resisting arrest and likely could have been avoided completely had they not done that, yet there isn't any call for people to stop doing that. This doesn't excuse the officers who acted inappropriately, but there is a reason resisting arrest is itself considered a crime.

You have to admit that "fake incidents" are an obvious outlier caused by people who want to make headlines, but not representative of the movement as a whole. Same with random officers being murdered, it's not happening on any level that should draw national concern: Officer deaths are actually down this year, we're just making them more high-profile to offset the BLM argument.

But I do agree that your first two points are reasons people take issue with the movement, even if they are IMO misguided.

The 3rd point I take issue with though: Most of the videos that gain traction of people "resisting arrest" are doing so in a civilly obedient manner. It would be like MLK's sit-ins resulting in the deaths of everyone who peacefully resisted arrest. There are way too many incidents of people "resisting arrest" by actually exercising their civil rights only to be attacked or arrested aggressively. If I'm pulled over will I do exactly what the officer asks, even if their request doesn't bear a legal right such as the search of my vehicle? Sure I will, because I'd rather not deal with the extenuating circumstance of fighting for my civil right to refuse so. But if someone wants to refuse that search, they legally are allowed to, and the officers responding aggressively to having their authority questioned are the ones in the wrong, not those who want to have their legal rights respected by said officers.

 

[KI4MVP]

Just like any citizen being murdered by the police is too many, any police officer being murdered is too many.

And let's just stick to the example of Jonathan Butler, does the BLM consider him a hero or do the condemn him for totally faking being hit by the car?

 

[gourimoko]

The problems people have come from a few places

1 - the fake incidents, like the claim the university president ran into the black student when video evidence later showed that to be complete BS. Faking incidents only harms the BLM movement. Instead of condemning a faker like Jonathan Butler, he get praised.

Is this representative though?

2 - the growing hatred towards all police officers over the actions of a few that has led to some of them being randomly murdered.

I'm not sure I would agree with "growing hatred." I think there is growing awareness among Whites as to how Blacks feel about the police. I think this awareness was largely absent and frankly ignored.

Police brutality is not new; we are just paying attention to it.

Murdering police only escalates the situation as it makes them more concerned with threats to their safety when they are doing their job which will cause some of them to fire their weapon sooner rather than later at a perceived threat.

Again, to @MalTalm 's point, I don't think this is remotely representative of the problem.

I don't know who would even want to be a police officer today.

I think that's an important question that needs to be answered.

3 - there is also the issue that the victims of so many of these high profile cases are people resisting arrest and likely could have been avoided completely had they not done that, yet there isn't any call for people to stop doing that.

Because resistance, disobedience, etc., are not justifications for being shot.

The number one crime in America today, as in, the number one way to escalate a situation into violence, is disrespecting a police officer.

That is a problem.

You are within your civil rights to disrespect anyone. Obviously resisting is another thing, but you shouldn't be gunned down for resisting.

This doesn't excuse the officers who acted inappropriately, but there is a reason resisting arrest is itself considered a crime.

It is a crime, but the punishment isn't death or brutality. I think that's the point.

 

[gourimoko]

Just like any citizen being murdered by the police is too many, any police officer being murdered is too many.

And let's just stick to the example of Jonathan Butler, does the BLM consider him a hero or do the condemn him for totally faking being hit by the car?

I think the larger point is about the situation of racism at the university. I'm not sure Butler's persona of heroism or otherwise is even relevant to that point.

It seems like a reach... Almost to say that we need to criticize this person, whether he lied or not, in order to negate some qualitative aspects of BLM.

 

[gourimoko]

I think, more to the point, is this notion of push-back from some White people. I don't understand the nature of it, and I haven't ever really grasped a rational way to derive such indignation. It makes no sense to me, so let me try to explain why.

Let's take said grievances into account, just a priori.

Take for example the few incidents of fake accounts, or Jonathan Butler's situation with the car, or what have you.. How do any of these incidents create a state of victimization, or in any way infringe or oppress White people by and large as a group?

How does a White person who feels anger toward BLM, who really doesn't have anything to do with the issue on either side of the argument, come to a conclusion that says "this harms me."

I can understand when Whites (or any group, honestly) says "I support BLM" because equality is a universal aspect of society. When one person is discriminated against, we all are; regardless of that person's race. But the counter-argument, I don't understand. "I'm against these people fighting for equality?" How does that make ethical/rational sense?

How are they damaged to the point of offense and to the point of indignation, even so much so as to get clearly and sometimes violently agitated over the issue?

For police, I get it. For Blacks and affected minorities, I get it. But if you're not in an affected group, where is the damage and why the condemnation?

The BLM argument seems to boil down to one of equality; so, I'm not sure I understand the counter-argument.

So, forgive me but, I don't really understand this whatsoever. It's as if someone were to file a lawsuit about a situation in which one party damages another, but, they have no standing. They don't know either party, nor do they represent either party. They weren't involved, and aren't involved, one way or another.

Am I missing something?