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Racial Tension in the U.S.

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Where should the thread go from here?

  • Racial Tension in the U.S.

    Votes: 16 51.6%
  • Extremist Views on the U.S.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Mending Years of Racial Stereotypes.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Protest Culture.

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • Racist Idiots in the News.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 32.3%

  • Total voters
    31
It didn't sound like he was trying to say that poverty is only a state of mind. From what I gathered from his comments it sounded like he was trying to get at how a person's mindset has a big impact on their living situation. If you walk around with a defeated attitude you're probably going to have a tough time.

I think the question is what he thinks causes those who are poor have to a "defeated attitude." The problem is that Carson is confusing the conditions of abject poverty and their affects on attitudes with what causes poverty in the first place.

It's one thing to say "be positive," but it's another thing entirely to talk about real policy solutions to address these people's very real problems.

Ben Carson isn't a leader of the Black community, I agree, but he's still a good success story. Who would you consider to be leaders of the Black community?

The most influential Black man, who some might call a leader of the Black community, was and still is Barack Obama.
 
It didn't sound like he was trying to say that poverty is only a state of mind. From what I gathered from his comments it sounded like he was trying to get at how a person's mindset has a big impact on their living situation. If you walk around with a defeated attitude you're probably going to have a tough time.

Ben Carson isn't a leader of the Black community, I agree, but he's still a good success story. Who would you consider to be leaders of the Black community?
Ben Carson IS a leader. A simple google search before 2014 shows all positive stories on him before the fake news media started in on casting him as a racist that turned on his people.
 
No.

The way these studies are done, the "applicants" aren't actually real people; it's usually experimental. Thus, the resumes are faked with only slight changes to evoke racial recognition in the person evaluating the resumes.

In other studies, the applicants are real, but are sorted and screen specifically to be like-matches.

Lastly, I forgot to mention that the most discriminated class isn't any of these, but, it's the disabled, followed by the elderly... As fucked up as that sounds.

Just want to say that this issue of applicant-discrimination, while certainly not true in every instance, absolutely is true in some. It's often the basis for housing discrimination lawsuits. Applications that are identical except for clearly ethnic names, or phone calls made by people whose voices are racially identifying, do sometimes get treated differently.

I did a lot of work with a housing advocacy group, and those "test calls" could be a significant way cases were built.
 
I think the question is what he thinks causes those who are poor have to a "defeated attitude." The problem is that Carson is confusing the conditions of abject poverty and their affects on attitudes with what causes poverty in the first place.

It's one thing to say "be positive," but it's another thing entirely to talk about real policy solutions to address these people's very real problems.
I could also see Carson sort of projecting his own experiences onto the situation as a whole and thinking "well, I came from poverty but kept a winning mindset and was successful, so other people can do the same."
The most influential Black man, who some might call a leader of the Black community, was and still is Barack Obama.
I agree. I don't keep up on much Obama-related news now that he's no longer president. What's his general message to the black community on this issue?
 
how does it ignore it? It seems like it just communicates that the only way out is to work through it and that while difficult, you can do it with the right state of mind. I don't see how that's ignorant.

First off I would argue against the notion that "the only way out is to work through it." I think we can both agree actually that this is demonstrably false. I say that because the United States has more that 10 million people currently considered "the working poor," and millions more who earn enough to not be considered poor, however, live in substandard conditions due to rising housing prices and are thus left with very little money after paying their expenses.

So with that being said, I think Carson's comments are keenly ignorant because Carson is in a position of power as a cabinet secretary tasked with solving these issues. Instead, like the EPA Administrator, he presents an ideology as an excuse, a non-solution, to avoid actually addressing real policy issues.

Simply put, poverty is a function of economics far more than it is of psychological mindset. We can increase or decrease the quality of life as well as the quantity of those experiencing poverty by changing large-scale economic policies. As an example of this in a political sense, Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders both presented the populist and protectionist economic argument that railed against rapid globalization and used unfair trade deals as an example of winners in the wealthy globalists and losers in the poor/working class. In fact, outside of taxes, there's not much between Trump's and Sanders' economic rhetoric.

So now that the election is over, one would think Carson would have more of a solution to the problems of the poor, along the populist rhetoric of the President; however, instead, his suggestion that poverty is a state of mind simply misses the point of his job.

The only reason it discounts circumstances is because you can't be focused on circumstances, it does absolutely nothing for you, what yiu can do needs to take priority. Yes it absolutely could have been communicated better, but that absolutely is the only way out. Is there another way that you can think of?

I can think of a few solutions that are used in most of the social democracies in the West to address the poverty issues we face today and will face in the future..

For starters, many cities have to work out rent control deals (see L.A.) with investment firms building new properties as well as buying up and gentrifying older communities. Affordable housing is of the utmost importance to keeping people out of poverty. This doesn't mean every home is rent controlled, but there needs to exist ample affordable housing without 10-year waiting lists. Cities need to control this through their zoning commissions and permit programs.

Additionally, we need universal (not means tested) child care services (via vouchers) throughout the nation, like the rest of the Western World. This would allow both parents, whether married or unmarried, or single parents who don't have support from large / stable families to work without spending half their weekly salary on child care (which can be the most expensive service in many households).

Universal multi- or single-payer health care services are absolutely a requirement. Poor and working class families can end up spending thousands upon thousands of dollars a year in health care expenses. Implementing single-payer would be like doubling the EIC for most American households making the median wage or less. Moreover, decoupling employers from primary health care coverage would reduce employer liability and improve the overall job market by lowering the cost of hiring new staff -- this should have positive effects on employment rates.

Expanding Social Security into a true 50-50 partially-private pension program (see George W. Bush's program, but modified, and backed by federal loan guarantees). Effectively Social Security should be turned into half-insurance, half-pension with half of the investment going into a private 401(k) like investment fund. This brings me to another solution which is:

Expanding available credit services offered to the poor and middle class. By creating a private pension and investment fund for every single American, you could expand their borrowing capacity using a portion of their retirement as collateral on their debt. This was proposed by the Republicans back in 2002. Moreover, the post office should expand it's operations into that of a public credit union and very limited banking service. This is not a new idea.. Prior to 1966, the post office held 10% of all commercial banking assets! We should return to this model, allowing the poor and working class, as well as rural families to have access to (1) emergency lending at low interest rates rather than payday loans, (2) simple low-interest credit card services rather than ultra high-interest predatory credit cards, (3) subprime-FHA backed lending services without predatory terms... etc, etc.. This point is crucial because you'd be talking about the poor being able to "lift themselves up" with the same tools that the better off have at their disposal.

Reforming our education system from the ground up, from integrated head start, to community-based latchkey programs giving parents time to work nonstandard shifts, to individual-tailored educational programs, to apprenticeships out of high school rather than standard 4 year HS degrees being the norm....

Reforming our collegiate system and tailoring more towards a hybrid 2/3-year degree for technical programs and leaving 4-year bachelor programs more for those who need that much time and experience. Also, reducing the elective requirements in place at most technical schools and community colleges which, while useful, can serve as more of a barrier to success than an eye-opening educational experience.

State collegiate schools, from community colleges, technical schools and 4-year universities should be free to attend for all; and this must include adults.

We must have education, vocational and training programs for adult workers who need to be re-trained into a new profession. We need job counselling programs the same way we have for students so that people can understand what the economy looks like, and how they fit in it.

The unemployment office should be reformed such that it becomes an employment service that can evaluate, train, and place workers into job openings and not just pay out insurance benefits.

We should implement a new civil service program for those who (1) want to serve their country but not fight in wars; and (2) frankly, for those who need a more regimented environment to get their shit together but aren't up to the standards of the US military either due to being single parents, having a mild criminal record, or not being sufficiently physically fit. Such a service program could do exactly what the military does for so many, in training of both skills, personal character, and work ethic.

I could go back to health-care again as it relates to Medicaid and CHIP (which should be absorbed into Medicare and offered to all people).... And again, with respect to the cost of pharmaceuticals...

Energy prices could be lowered through a national infrastructure and energy program, like John McCain ran on in 2008 when he argued to build 50 new and modern nuclear power plants across the country, which would significantly reduce the overall cost of energy in the United States. Not only would this create a shit ton of jobs and infuse trillions of dollars of capital into the economy, but it would greatly reduce the cost of energy across the board.

We absolutely need a national transportation infrastructure re-haul in this country. We are falling behind most of the industrialized world in this respect. We should have high-speed rail systems throughout most of the country, and every major city and it's surrounding suburbs should have a timely, clean, functional and affordable transit system both intracity and to the surrounding areas.

But.. again, I could go on .. and on ... and on...

There are real-world solutions, policy solutions, to the problems faced by America's poor. And that's why Ben Carson's comments were perceived by so many as simply being ignorant, because he's in the position of power to offer such solutions; not to speak to the mindset 20+ million Americans who are living in substandard conditions as if that's why they are where they are, rather than socioeconomic policies that have shaped our economy the way it is today.
 
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I could also see Carson sort of projecting his own experiences onto the situation as a whole and thinking "well, I came from poverty but kept a winning mindset and was successful, so other people can do the same."

Sure, and I think you're actually totally right here; but that's the problem, it's an irrational way of thinking. He's internalizing the larger problem and looking at it through his own personal experience without realizing his experience doesn't speak to the larger reality for everyone else.

I agree. I don't keep up on much Obama-related news now that he's no longer president. What's his general message to the black community on this issue?

On the issue of the poor? Obama is somewhat of a centrist-liberal on these topics, and he's also quite a pragmatist (like Bill Clinton); so, his view is rooted in that ideological space. Do what you can with what you have, but at the same time, you should fight for socioeconomic improvements and be vocal and active in your lobbying of politicians to do what's right by you.

Obama's neither for high taxes or socialist programs (like Sanders) or for low taxes and cuts (like Trump/Ryan). He's very much in the middle of these two extremes.
 
Give every parent in that district options...vouchers or open enrollment to a better school.

I can see the argument for vouchers and open enrollment. But you are dismissing the downsides as nothing but politically/selfishly motivated, when there are real concerns. For one, can you support with any examples that voucher programs have actually worked out? I'm genuinely curious because I usually see this option painted in a negative light. Does it help students and school districts? Beyond that it's a privatization of education, which can lead to other issues, such as how to handle state standards and oversight given that we are putting public funds into private institutions.

And again, this does NOTHING for a failing school. That's why I'm far more interested in learning what you meant about schools refusing to change their practices toward more successful models. Taking kids and funding away from failing schools doesn't fix the problem for those schools that some students will be depending on.

Do we have enough room in successful private schools (vouchers) and public schools (open enrollment) to fit every single student into a quality education, or is there still more change necessary to guarantee that we can provide that for every student?
 
Also "stop thinking poor", doesn't provide you with the tools to "think rich".

Starting a business, or taking risks is great, but you have to have some money to do that. Interest rates are not incentivizing anyone to do that.

I think the post office should take on the additional role of banks for poor people. Be able to cash checks and have a savings account. Banks will not allow this, which is a great service in other countries, would help the post office make money, and would eliminate check cashing places that take a good chunk of your check. This used to exist and the fact that it doesn't, isn't somehow helpful to poor people.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/post-office-banking-2/

I mean it is easy to say don't be poor, but at least provide some tools to reverse the flow. Work harder is an aphorism, not a plan.
 
at least provide some tools to reverse the flow.


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Sure, and I think you're actually totally right here; but that's the problem, it's an irrational way of thinking. He's internalizing the larger problem and looking at it through his own personal experience without realizing his experience doesn't speak to the larger reality for everyone else.



On the issue of the poor? Obama is somewhat of a centrist-liberal on these topics, and he's also quite a pragmatist (like Bill Clinton); so, his view is rooted in that ideological space. Do what you can with what you have, but at the same time, you should fight for socioeconomic improvements and be vocal and active in your lobbying of politicians to do what's right by you.

Obama's neither for high taxes or socialist programs (like Sanders) or for low taxes and cuts (like Trump/Ryan). He's very much in the middle of these two extremes.
Obama got built up as a boogeyman by many on the right, but the more I learn about him he doesn't seem like he's all that bad.
 
Obama got built up as a boogeyman by many on the right, but the more I learn about him he doesn't seem like he's all that bad.

He's a great guy from what I understand... My aunt knows him personally.

I'd take Bernie over Obama in a heartbeat, but, in Jedi terms, he's like Qui-Gon Jinn..
 
yeah polarity doesn't help neutron flow at all. They are neutral and don't react to charges.

Which, is why it's one of the greatest sci-fi lines of all time! Right up there with "beam me up!"
 

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