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The 16-17 MVP Race

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Who is the MVP of the season so far?

  • James Harden

    Votes: 17 16.5%
  • Russell Westbrook

    Votes: 33 32.0%
  • LeBron James

    Votes: 46 44.7%
  • Kevin Durant

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • Kawhi Leonard

    Votes: 4 3.9%
  • Other (specify in thread)

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    103
This thing is close, but Westbrook might take it.

One thing, he's got the highest usage basically ever and he's gonna do it playing all 82. That's crazy. People can bitch about his stat padding all they want, but he's involved in more plays than anyone ever and has played every game. That's an incredible amount of stress on his body.

And honestly, I'm deaf to any criticism at this point. This is like when Wade carried the Heat to 47 wins in '10 or LeBron carried the Cavs to 50 wins in '07. Whatever negatives they may have had as players, they took bad, talentless rosters to win totals they shouldn't have been within 15 of. He's at 45 wins now with 5 to play. You replace him with a league average starting point guard like Dennis Schroeder or Jrue Holiday and I don't think you get much above 30.
 
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This thing is close, but Westbrook might take it.

One thing, he's got the highest usage basically ever and he's gonna do it playing all 82. That's crazy. People can bitch about his stat padding all they want, but he's involved in more plays than anyone ever and has played every game. That's an incredible amount of stress on his body.

And honestly, I'm deaf to any criticism at this point. This is like when Wade carried the Heat to 47 wins in '10 or LeBron carried the Cavs to 50 wins in '07. Whatever negatives they may have had as players, they took bad, talentless rosters to win totals they shouldn't have been within 15 of. He's at 45 wins now with 5 to play. You replace him with a league average starting point guard like Dennis Schroeder or Jrue Holiday and I don't think you get much above 30.

I've been swayed to Russ for MVP as well. I think his games played is actually a really big deal in this current season of rest drama, and that will fuel him to receive the award.
 
I thought Harden was a lock, even though I was rooting for Russ to take it, but damn he's going to make it close with his recent performances
 
I am also in the swayed to Russell camp. His performances as of late have been monstrous. He's even shooting better from 3 than Harden right now.
 
I was looking at Westbrook's numbers and realized he's logging all these triple-doubles averaging a mere 34.7 minutes per game.
 
Does looking like a metro ninja turtle hurt or help?
 
Ugh. I HATE the RWB bandwagon.

A few reasons:

The last time someone outside of a top 3 seed won MVP the NBA Finals were televised on tape delay (mid 1970s - Kareem).

He is shooting BELOW league avg TS%. And is on pace to break the all time TO record (Harden WILL beat him there).

The defensive rebounding stat padding is out of control. His DRBD% has gone up 50% from last year. His off rebounds are essentially identical the last 3 seasons. Why? He is essentially taking rebounds from his teammates (and that's impossible to do on the offensive end). To what end? Westbrook is leading the NBA in uncontested rebounds. Now OKC and their supporters will tell you that is to start transition offense earlier. But even granting that, it certainly isn't providing his team more possessions. If you remove those he is essentially averaging the same # of rebs as Harden. Harden's %s are so far ahead of RWB that if he missed his next 177 shots he would have the same eFG% as Russ. AND he is leading the league in Assts.

Lastly, OKC was #17 in offense before the Taj/McD trade (up to #14 now). So OKC is a ~league avg offensive team. Harden has his team at 115.5 pts/100 possessions. That is .1 away from the best offensive team in the history of the game. When LeBron is in the Cavs have a 118.5 rating. THATS what MVP caliber players do for offenses.

Dude... YES. Westbrook's percentages are mediocre. His numbers are incredible and historic from a VOLUME standpoint, but I think a big part of being MVP is also how efficient you are. He's simply a volume player right now... volume shooter, volume everything... People pointing to his usage % or % of the team's points, assists, rebounds act as if this shows he's the most valuable, but I disagree. This speaks solely to the volume of work he's doing. Incredible, still, but when the efficiency of others in the race is so much higher, and their teams are better, I dont think you can make him MVP.
 
The thing people don't realize is that nearly every analytical stat - outside of win shares - have Westbrook above Harden, and some have LeBron above Harden, too. Not only is Westbrook averaging a triple-double, but in doing so, he is helping his team to more wins than any other player in the NBA.

I've been on this bandwagon awhile, but the past week has solidified it, Westbrook is the MVP.

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...rook-harden-lebron-kawhi-nba-mvp-best-metrics

Russell Westbrook or James Harden? Or, alternatively, LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard?

From win shares to RPM, NBA player value metrics were designed to help inform our discussion about awards such as this year's fascinating MVP race. Yet it can be tricky to navigate the alphabet soup of various metrics to determine what advanced stats really tell us about the players involved.

Let's take a look at how I would rank the top MVP candidates, based on five important metrics:

BPM:
far and away the best since 1973-74, the first season for which the stat was calculated. LeBron James' 2008-09 season is next at plus-13.0, and there's a larger gap between Westbrook and James than there is between the No. 2 and No. 14 seasons all time.

Based on BPM, Westbrook is on pace for 12.4 VORP, which would surpass Michael Jordan's record of 12.0 in 1988-89.

What it means: Frankly, Westbrook's season has broken BPM, which is not quite as flattering to him as it sounds.

To improve the quality of the rating for most players, BPM uses interaction effects that multiply a player's assist percentage by his usage rate and his rebound percentage. As you might guess, Westbrook's season is off the charts historically by both measures.

Here's the leaderboard for assist percentage multiplied by usage rate back through 1977-78, the first season the NBA tracked player turnovers:

Win shares (Basketball-Reference.com)[/paste:font]Rudy Gobert of the Utah Jazz is second to Harden with 13.9 win shares.) Those factors work against Westbrook, who ranks fifth in the league, by far his lowest ranking in any common value stat.

Win shares also don't factor in the key concept of replacement level, so they tend to reward minutes played, where Harden leads the league, more than productivity.

EWA (based on PER)
Kevin Durantand Anthony Davis.

WARP
RPM wins[/paste:font]per NBA.com/Stats, James leads the league in RPM wins even though his box-score statistics have not been as strong as those of the other MVP contenders.


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It's possible, though, that Westbrook will pass him for the top spot by the end of the season, particularly if James is rested down the stretch.

RPM is relatively low on Harden's candidacy because the Rockets haven't declined much with him on the bench; they still outscore opponents by 4.5 points per 100 possessions when Harden rests. In particular, Houston defends better without Harden, so his minus-1.7 defensive rating in RPM is the lowest among the MVP candidates by a wide margin. Westbrook rates minus-0.4 points per 100 possessions on defense, which is better than it sounds, because guards are typically worse defensively than frontcourt players.

Leonard's defensive RPM (plus-0.9) has declined dramatically from last year's plus-3.9 mark. As I've discussed previously, opponent 3-point shooting explains a lot of why the Spurs have defended better with Leonard on the bench. Subsequently, Bo Schwartz Madsen of Nylon Calculus found that this effect was larger for Leonard than anyone else in the league. If Leonard's defensive RPM was about 3.3 or better, he'd be leading the NBA in RPM wins, so there's a case to be made for him here, too.

It's intriguing that Westbrook and Harden have also seen opponents shoot 3s worse against their teams while they're on the bench, though the effect isn't nearly as large as with Leonard. Cavaliers opponents have shot better from 3 with James on the bench.

Any of the top four candidates has a good MVP case depending on the metrics you use. Soobum Im/USA TODAY Sports
Summing up the MVP race by advanced stats
Depending on your metric of choice and assumptions, you can use advanced stats to make a case for any of the four leading contenders, so be careful to avoid cherry-picking in favor of your candidate.

After looking at all these stats, I find it useful to consider players in terms of their impact per 100 possessions at both ends of the court. BPM, RPM and WARP are all similar in terms of how they estimate this impact, and here's how the MVP candidates compare.

Offensive Impact Per 100 Possessions
PLAYERRPMBPMWARPESTIMATE
Russell Westbrook10.66.88.99
James Harden8.66.77.98.5
LeBron James6.65.86.56.5
Kawhi Leonard6.45.36.26.3
Don't flatten the difference in skills by saying all four MVP candidates have been great offensively. It's clear by all three metrics that Harden and Westbrook have been the best offensive players because of how much offense they create for themselves and their teammates. Based on these, my best guess is that Westbrook has a small edge on Harden, with James and Leonard two to three points per 100 possessions behind.

Defensive Impact Per 100 Possessions
PLAYERRPMBPMWARPESTIMATE
Kawhi Leonard0.91.52.12
LeBron James1.21.60.81
Russell Westbrook-0.44.72.0-0.5
James Harden-1.71.50.7-1.5
Defense is tougher to measure statistically, but I'm inclined to consider RPM the most telling metric for Harden and Westbrook, because my scouting suggests their box-score stats overvalue them defensively. Because of the 3-point effect, I think box-score stats actually do better with Leonard, and I'm a little more skeptical of James' regular-season defense than some of the metrics suggest.

Combining those two guesses with minutes played would yield the following wins above replacement based on my estimate of replacement level (about 2.6 points worse than league average per 100 possessions).

Wins Above Replacement
PLAYEROFFENSEDEFENSETOTALWAR
Russell Westbrook9.0-0.58.518.4
LeBron James6.517.517.2
James Harden8.5-1.57.016.9
Kawhi Leonard6.328.316.3
Even though Leonard rates second to Westbrook on a per-possession basis in my subjective evaluation, his lower minutes total relegates him to fourth in my MVP rankings. Meanwhile, Harden's defensive disadvantage relative to James drops him to third with Westbrook comfortably leading the other contenders in terms of wins above replacement.

To me, the most valuable player is the one who adds the most wins to his team's bottom line, and that's why after consulting the advanced stats, Westbrook would be my MVP.

My top four:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. LeBron James
3. James Harden
4. Kawhi Leonard
 
Dude... YES. Westbrook's percentages are mediocre. His numbers are incredible and historic from a VOLUME standpoint, but I think a big part of being MVP is also how efficient you are. He's simply a volume player right now... volume shooter, volume everything... People pointing to his usage % or % of the team's points, assists, rebounds act as if this shows he's the most valuable, but I disagree. This speaks solely to the volume of work he's doing. Incredible, still, but when the efficiency of others in the race is so much higher, and their teams are better, I dont think you can make him MVP.

I think this thread twitter thread sums up the Westbrook for MVP argument fairly well.

This specific tweet shows the adjusted TS% which adjusts to consider a player's usage rate, due to the fact that there is a trade-off between usage and efficiency. It's tougher to maintain efficiency with higher usage.

View: https://twitter.com/DanFeldmanNBA/status/850082473455357958


Also, I know you didn't bring it up, but a lot of people point to his turnovers to try and detract from his MVP case. In my opinion, his turnover rate should actually help his case.

The TO% of the MVP contenders:
Westbrook: 15.9%
Harden: 19.5%
LeBron: 16.1%

and just for comparison's sake:
Steve Nash's career: 19.5%
 
I'm genuinely mystified that people can look at one single metric and discount what Westbrook has done this season.

LIke holy shit. What Russ is doing has never been done. He is willing a garbage team to near 50 wins.

People are massively underappreciating just how good Westbrook has been this year and I really can't understand why.
 
Westbrook should win it. I think this is the only thing he cares about at this point. If he doesn't win it, I would put him on suicide watch.
The guy gives his all on a game to game basis, he plays with 200% effort and he got his sorry ass team to a pretty respectable record in the west.
Yes, he is not a top seed but it would be extremely difficult with all the top end talent in the west.. But ffs, the guy plays like a god damn machine and he clearly wants it more than anyone else at this point.

Harden wouldn't be close to an MVP candidate if not for his stupendous amount of FTs he takes and his FG% and TS% would plummet like my nut sack.
 
I'm genuinely mystified that people can look at one single metric and discount what Westbrook has done this season.

LIke holy shit. What Russ is doing has never been done. He is willing a garbage team to near 50 wins.

People are massively underappreciating just how good Westbrook has been this year and I really can't understand why.

Well, I mean LeBron took some otherwise pretty garbage teams to over 60 wins... didn't average a triple double, but was probably close if you factor in Mike Brown's pace.
 
Well, I mean LeBron took some otherwise pretty garbage teams to over 60 wins... didn't average a triple double, but was probably close if you factor in Mike Brown's pace.
The fact that he is being mentioned in the same regard as LeBron is kind of proving my point though...
 

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