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The 16-17 MVP Race

Discussion in 'Around The NBA' started by blommen, Dec 17, 2016.

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Who is the MVP of the season so far?

  1. James Harden

    17 vote(s)
    16.5%
  2. Russell Westbrook

    33 vote(s)
    32.0%
  3. LeBron James

    46 vote(s)
    44.7%
  4. Kevin Durant

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  5. Kawhi Leonard

    4 vote(s)
    3.9%
  6. Other (specify in thread)

    2 vote(s)
    1.9%
  1. K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's

    K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's NBA Starter

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    Lower seed, Hard to see him carrying his team to a 4th seed with so many good teams in the West.

    Also efficiency, Harden is more efficient from the field/3PT, the only edge Westbrook has on him is that he's averaging two more rebounds, but Harden is averaging 30-8-12 which is just as crazy really.
     
  2. rabman_gold

    rabman_gold Back-in-the-Midwest

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    1. Russell Westbrook
      • The present day Oscar Robertson
      • As the sole star, 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 assists
    2. James Harden
      • A superstar thriving off of "the D'Antoni Effect", like Steve Nash
      • Now a point guard with 28 points, 8 rebounds, 12 assists
    3. Kevin Durant
      • Best player on the best team, but since the other guys are putting up similar numbers, hard to justify
      • 26 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 blocks
    4. Kawhi Leonard
      • Considered the sole star/leader of the team on both sides of the ball
      • 24 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists
    5. LeBron James
      • Best player on the best team in the Eastern Conference; has already won MVP 4 times throughout his prime
      • 26 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists
      • Big difference in the team when he doesn't play (or when he sits on the bench for his break)

    No question, all of these guys could be deserving of MVP, but the voters don't usually give the award to the same guy, even if he deserves it the most. LeBron's already won 4. Durant has 1, his teammate Curry just won the last 2. That leaves the 2 point guards with crazy numbers. As long as either of them can get a respectable record in the Regular Season, it's theirs to lose.

    FWIW, Wilt and Oscar put up insane numbers in the early 60s, but it was Bill Russell who dominated the MVP Award early on. But that was in a small league back then, where losing games stood out for more.
     
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  3. The Wizard of Moz

    The Wizard of Moz Lindorable

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    I don't think Durant is in any way deserving of the MVP

    The team is arguably worse than last year
     
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  4. The Wizard of Moz

    The Wizard of Moz Lindorable

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    Yeah putting Durant on the level of Harden and Westbrook for MVP is just insulting

    In no way is he a part of this conversation in the minds of anyone but the few closet Warriors fans we have on this board
     
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  5. HurricaneKid

    HurricaneKid In the Rotation

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    If you want a reason why Russell isn't a real MVP candidate after yesterday (when I thought it was abundantly clear) here is a stat for you:

    League Avg TS% is .551
    OKC TS% (as a team) .543
    Russell Westbrook TS% - .531

    So all this scoring he is doing is being done at not only less than optimal efficiency, but WELL below both the NBA average and his own team's efficiency. And that doesn't include his 5.5 TOs a game.

    He is spectacular to watch but its pretty evident to me that the energy he exudes doesn't impact the game the way everyone believes it to. And the shenanigans with his rebounding totals are evident. He is rebounding 27.6% of shots missed while he is on defense. This is >50% increase over his career best. You can argue allowing him to garner rebounds his bigs would normally get allows him to push in transition. What you CANNOT argue is that he is taking rebounds his bigs have position for to pad his stats. He is a really good rebounding guard, but he isn't THAT good.
     
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  6. SuperSurge

    SuperSurge Slice & Dice Staff Member Moderator

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    That "better for transition" thing bothers me.

    Wouldn't it be optimal for a guy to rebound it, then outlet to Westbrook at the timeline per near halfcourt? How is Russell chasing a rebound down along the baseline, standing near one of his bigs any better for transition?
     
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  7. The Wizard of Moz

    The Wizard of Moz Lindorable

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    shooting efficiency doesn't remain constant with an increase in attempts

    Replace Russ with a league average PG and that team might have 15 wins

    You're way oversimplifying things by looking at one number

    Without Westbrook they're one of the worst teams in the league. Decrease Russel's shots and increase the island of misfit toy's shots per game and their TS goes down while his goes up

    You're taking one of the best single seasons in NBA history and using one metric with zero context around it to say 'welp, clearly not an MVP!'

    Leading the league in scoring. Leading the league in BPM. Leading the league in VORP. But that damn TS%!
     
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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2017
  8. jking948

    jking948 All-Star

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    He's also been great on defense this season. It's a reason why Kyrie's performance yesterday was so special. Westbrook/Oladipo/Roberson has been a phenomenal trio at guarding the perimeter.
     
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  9. HurricaneKid

    HurricaneKid In the Rotation

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    We will agree to disagree on this one. Roberson is an elite defensive player and Dipo has shown himself to be a really good defensive player. But Westbrook is the same defensive player he has always been. He takes too many chances, gets caught off guard, and rests when he is tired. To be sure, he is asked to do WAY too much, so taking shots at his defense is probably a little unfair.

    In regards to some relatively good Defensive splits, S Adams is one of the best defenders in the league and Westbrook has been on the floor for 95% of his minutes this year. So he sees quite a bit of benefit from sharing so much of Adams' time.
     
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  10. -Akronite-

    -Akronite- NBA Starter

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    Our rough stretch feels, effectively, like an end to LeBron's MVP campaign. He had the numbers and narrative to compete (especially since Houston has had a rough patch of their own) but now the script has flipped and it's more talk of how he's asking for help rather than taking the lead.

    It would take a surprising second half for him to really contend at this point. Obviously the playoffs matter more, but I was rooting for #5. As things stand we'll probably just take the first seed in the East by a couple games without over-exerting.
     
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  11. HurricaneKid

    HurricaneKid In the Rotation

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    Ok.

    Its a bad team without him to be sure, but Dipo/Adams/Kanter with several defensive players isn't horrifying. And they are going to end up pretty close to the 45 win O/U that Vegas had before the season started. And a 6/7 seed (I'd bet 7th) isn't going to get it done.

    OKC ranks #6 in the NBA in defense and #18 in offense. They win because of their defense. Period. He doesn't contribute in a meaningful way to that. They WOULD be a lesser offensive team, and substantially so without him. But propping a team up to the #18 offense isn't MVP caliber stuff IMO.

    And all the stats you are quoting me are box score influenced stats. I have been attempting to showing how his stats have been pretty brazenly inflated and you are saying yeah, but this stat that uses all those inflated stats is high! Sure they are. No one is arguing the accumulations aren't impressive. Just that when you peek behind the curtain, they aren't as majestic as they would seem. He has carried his team to the #18 offense in the league with SIGNIFICANTLY BELOW AVERAGE efficiency, his defensive rebounds are inflated by 50%, and his team would be the lowest seed to earn an MVP since... Ever.

    It doesn't diminish an impressive season and he absolutely should be starting the ASG. I just don't think he has a claim to be MVP.
     
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  12. The Wizard of Moz

    The Wizard of Moz Lindorable

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    [​IMG]

    This is my list of top 10 in MVP voting

    You can try arguing it, but good luck. This is a definitive list of the most impactful players this year.
     
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  13. Just Checkin

    Just Checkin Sixth Man

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    I'm looking at that, Gobert's offensive and defensive impact, and still wondering why he isn't an All Star.

    smh
     
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  14. HurricaneKid

    HurricaneKid In the Rotation

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    I felt like it was a strong possibility because of the inane reasons that are still used today. That he was really going up against Hayward and not Deandre. Once Haywood got selected it was about finding a player from the 30-18 Clippers. Which is just such a ridiculous way of selecting the league's best (the Clippers choice was CLEARLY CP3).

    The fans did an awful job with the vote (Curry over RWB??), the players were an abject embarrassment and seemingly voted en masse for themselves and their friends or not at all. And the coaches, while they did right by the EC, didn't do as well with the Western Conf.
     
  15. 23Lebron

    23Lebron Kī tōnu taku waka topaki i te tuna

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    I'm going with Other (Draymond Green)
     
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