The Rise of Skywalker spoilers thread

[gourimoko]

I'm not going to comment on everything you said, because I really don't feel like quoting movies all day.

I hear ya, I'm trying to avoid actually working, personally..

Suffice it to say, Yoda and Ben Kenobi both went to places where they were extremely hard to find. Dagobah for many years, and Tatooine for many years. Thus they both did not want to be bothered by the inter-workings of the Galaxy, politics, wars, etc. They both were hermits and both needed to be sought out in order to find them. Same with Luke Skywalker in TLJ.

Well, Obi-Wan and Yoda were in hiding... They were hiding from Palpatine and Vader, and Obi-Wan's purpose was to watch over Luke and guide him along the path of becoming a Jedi like his father.

So I don't think the bolded is really an accurate description of their motivations. Obi-Wan is more interested in teaching and guiding Luke than not being bothered; same for Yoda by the third act of Empire when he begs him to stay and finish his training. Yoda is willing to sacrifice Han, Leia, Chewy, so that Luke can become a Jedi and defeat Vader and the Emperor; so his motivations are pretty clearly defined IMHO.

Everyone experiences changes in their life. This first time we now are understanding Cannon Luke Skywalker as an old man- his evolution. It is what it is, this is who he became. I'm not going to fight and disagree with everything that's happening, i'll just take it for what it is. A character evolution.

That's fair, and that's definitely your prerogative as a viewer; however, I think many of us feel that we should make it known that we're very much turned off by the direction they've taken this character that we all grew up with.

It's frankly disturbing and I think somewhat unfair to the community at large, the actor who portrayed him, as well as the creator of the franchise itself. At a certain point, it feels almost wrong that Rian Johnson was able to so utterly destroy Luke's character in this movie given the decades of material and effort put into writing about this single individual.

As much as people lamented Lucas for not understanding the community aspect of the films given their widespread cultural relevance; I think Johnson paid no mind whatsoever to what anyone might think of his ideas, and decided to be as jarring as possible without a care in the world for anyone but himself. I think, for a franchise like Star Wars, that's problematic.

For me TFA was completely atrocious.

Agreed, 1000%..

TLJ on the other hand was watchable and enjoyable. And i've been a SW freak my whole life. Gave up on trying to understand why people are doing what they are doing to this franchise.

I understand where you're coming from.... I think we're in the same boat on giving up trying to understand what's going on with Disney and Star Wars....

 

[Lyst]

That's fair, and that's definitely your prerogative as a viewer; however, I think many of us feel that we should make it known that we're very much turned off by the direction they've taken this character that we all grew up with.

It's frankly disturbing and I think somewhat unfair to the community at large, the actor who portrayed him, as well as the creator of the franchise itself. At a certain point, it feels almost wrong that Rian Johnson was able to so utterly destroy Luke's character in this movie given the decades of material and effort put into writing about this single individual.

As much as people lamented Lucas for not understanding the community aspect of the films given their widespread cultural relevance; I think Johnson paid no mind whatsoever to what anyone might think of his ideas, and decided to be as jarring as possible without a care in the world for anyone but himself. I think, for a franchise like Star Wars, that's problematic.

See that's the thing I liked about TLJ. TFA was trying SO HARD to be like the original trilogy, that it just seemed like a regurgitation of ideas, plots, premises, and dialogue.

I'd rather there be some off-the-cuff evolution in a character, then have all of the characters play the same exact role. The plot to seem the same. Everything really. God I hated TFA.

I think TLJ was enough like SW for someone like me to enjoy it, while going off into its own tangent.

Here's my ratings for the movies as it stands.
ORIGINAL TRILOGY excluded.
Favorite to worst.

EP1
EP3
EP8
EP2
EP7

Mind you, I did not particularly love any of the movies when they came out. Every single one of them i've had to acquire a taste for over time.

 

[gourimoko]

I really hope so... I'm just skeptical. I think it'll take episode 9 falling short as well as Rian's first of the trilogy before they even think about it. I know I personally won't watch episode 9 right away like I did episode 7-8. I'll probably wait a while and duck in here and read the reviews from all of you that view the series like I do before giving them money after the disappointment of 7 and 8.

But I will say they're on a tight rope regarding episode 10. If they think Rey, Finn, and Poe will elicit the emotional response, loyalty and $$$ that Luke, Leia, and Han did, they're in for a rude awakening. They're all just a big *blah* for me.

I really do not expect Episode 10 to have those 3 characters as protagonists.... not with how things have gone thus far.

 

[Ohio]

For me TFA was completely atrocious. TLJ on the other hand was watchable and enjoyable. And i've been a SW freak my whole life. Gave up on trying to understand why people are doing what they are doing to this franchise.

I completely disagree with this. TFA was completely unoriginal, and I wasn't a fan of some things (Kylo Ren being a pussy, Rey magically having lightsaber/force skills, etc) but it was a movie that at least made some damn sense. There was some actual good in TFA. Characters like Poe & Finn were great and very promising for the rest of the trilogy.

Then you have TLJ...where nothing makes sense. It was original, yes, but unlike TFA it made absolutely no sense. You have a film riddled with plot holes, a stupid storyline, characters like Luke, Poe, Finn, Snoke literally ruined in this movie. Ackbar getting killed off unceremoniously for no reason while some bitch nobody cares about makes the heroic sacrifice. Etc.

And then you have dead (only to magically come back to life) Leia levitating through space without explanation, which is by far and away the single dumbest moment in the history of Star Wars.

TLJ was garbage. It effectively has destroyed this trilogy as there's not one character left that I give a shit about. TLJ ruined them all. I mean where does this next movie go? That pussy Kylo Ren tries to take over the universe by himself? Please.

Easily the worst Star Wars movie. TPM had some redeeming qualities. It had pod racing. Darth Maul. Episode 2 had Jango Fett & Mace Windu, and the good final lightsaber fights between Dooku/Anakin and Dooku/Yoda.

I honestly cannot think of one cool scene or positive development from TLJ.

 

[Cavatt]

I hear ya, I'm trying to avoid actually working, personally..



Well, Obi-Wan and Yoda were in hiding... They were hiding from Palpatine and Vader, and Obi-Wan's purpose was to watch over Luke and guide him along the path of becoming a Jedi like his father.

So I don't think the bolded is really an accurate description of their motivations. Obi-Wan is more interested in teaching and guiding Luke than not being bothered; same for Yoda by the third act of Empire when he begs him to stay and finish his training. Yoda is willing to sacrifice Han, Leia, Chewy, so that Luke can become a Jedi and defeat Vader and the Emperor; so his motivations are pretty clearly defined IMHO.



That's fair, and that's definitely your prerogative as a viewer; however, I think many of us feel that we should make it known that we're very much turned off by the direction they've taken this character that we all grew up with.

It's frankly disturbing and I think somewhat unfair to the community at large, the actor who portrayed him, as well as the creator of the franchise itself. At a certain point, it feels almost wrong that Rian Johnson was able to so utterly destroy Luke's character in this movie given the decades of material and effort put into writing about this single individual.

As much as people lamented Lucas for not understanding the community aspect of the films given their widespread cultural relevance; I think Johnson paid no mind whatsoever to what anyone might think of his ideas, and decided to be as jarring as possible without a care in the world for anyone but himself. I think, for a franchise like Star Wars, that's problematic.





Agreed, 1000%..



I understand where you're coming from.... I think we're in the same boat on giving up trying to understand what's going on with Disney and Star Wars....

I think the Luke arc of ending up in the same boat as Yoda and Obi Wan makes a lot of sense. They were hiding I guess, but really they had given up and decided that they had lost too much to continue to fight. Yoda was 800 years old or something and months from dying when he met Luke. Obi wan gave up even in his fight against Vader, and basically Luke sacrificed himself the same exact way. His idealism was gone, he saw the error of the Jedi being the light side, and he sacrificed himself to help his sister and so the last of the rebels could escape.

Really his arc follows your feelings of the movies in general. Super idealistic, positive, me against the world. Then Realization it isn't what you thought it was, and then you give in that this is something that is not for you. Lol. He's a tragic figure, but really all the heros in star wars are, including Vader. They never really realize what is going on until it is too late.

It's a sad story and in war there is never really any glory I think even for heroes.

 

[gourimoko]

I completely disagree with this. TFA was completely unoriginal, and I wasn't a fan of some things (Kylo Ren being a pussy, Rey magically having lightsaber/force skills, etc) but it was a movie that at least made some damn sense. There was some actual good in TFA. Characters like Poe & Finn were great and very promising for the rest of the trilogy.

Then you have TLJ...where nothing makes sense. It was original, yes, but unlike TFA it made absolutely no sense. You have a film riddled with plot holes, a stupid storyline, characters like Luke, Poe, Finn, Snoke literally ruined in this movie. Ackbar getting killed off unceremoniously for no reason while some bitch nobody cares about makes the heroic sacrifice. Etc.

And then you have dead (only to magically come back to life) Leia levitating through space without explanation, which is by far and away the single dumbest moment in the history of Star Wars.

TLJ was garbage. It effectively has destroyed this trilogy as there's not one character left that I give a shit about. TLJ ruined them all. I mean where does this next movie go? That pussy Kylo Ren tries to take over the universe by himself? Please.

Easily the worst Star Wars movie. TPM had some redeeming qualities. It had pod racing. Darth Maul. Episode 2 had Jango Fett & Mace Windu, and the good final lightsaber fights between Dooku/Anakin and Dooku/Yoda.

I honestly cannot think of one cool scene or positive development from TLJ.

To think we will never get to see Mark Hamill / Luke Skywalker in a light-saber duel...

What could have been...

 

[MD13]

I really do not expect Episode 10 to have those 3 characters as protagonists.... not with how things have gone thus far.

Even if it's not them, it's the same problem though. The one character left that still has a ton of pull is Revan... It doesn't matter if it's those three or a brand new set of heroes and villains, I can't think of any that makes you think "I want to know how his/her story ends, so I'm watching it just for this."

 

[Ohio]

But I will say they're on a tight rope regarding episode 10. If they think Rey, Finn, and Poe will elicit the emotional response, loyalty and $$$ that Luke, Leia, and Han did, they're in for a rude awakening. They're all just a big *blah* for me.

Exactly. This is my single biggest issue with TLJ; how it ruined characters. I don't give a single fuck about any of these characters anymore. There's no such thing as a good story without good characters.

 

[Lyst]

I completely disagree with this. TFA was completely unoriginal, and I wasn't a fan of some things (Kylo Ren being a pussy, Rey magically having lightsaber/force skills, etc) but it was a movie that at least made some damn sense. There was some actual good in TFA. Characters like Poe & Finn were great and very promising for the rest of the trilogy.

Then you have TLJ...where nothing makes sense. It was original, yes, but unlike TFA it made absolutely no sense. You have a film riddled with plot holes, a stupid storyline, characters like Luke, Poe, Finn, Snoke literally ruined in this movie. Ackbar getting killed off unceremoniously for no reason while some bitch nobody cares about makes the heroic sacrifice. Etc.

And then you have dead (only to magically come back to life) Leia levitating through space without explanation, which is by far and away the single dumbest moment in the history of Star Wars.

TLJ was garbage. It effectively has destroyed this trilogy as there's not one character left that I give a shit about. TLJ ruined them all. I mean where does this next movie go? That pussy Kylo Ren tries to take over the universe by himself? Please.

Easily the worst Star Wars movie. TPM had some redeeming qualities. It had pod racing. Darth Maul. Episode 2 had Jango Fett & Mace Windu, and the good final lightsaber fights between Dooku/Anakin and Dooku/Yoda.

I honestly cannot think of one cool scene or positive development from TLJ.

I mean it's all subjective anyway right. To be honest with you my expectations for these new movies are so fucking low, that if it's entertaining i'll walk away a happy man.

The second you start to analyze every little thing, you go down a rabbit hole you will never get out of. This was realized with the prequels. And only seems to be getting worse now.

The whole Leia floating through mid air is hilarious! It's just comical. I'm glad they did it because it's so bad it makes me laugh.

Do you realize that Ewoks beat down AT-STs with rocks and stones and ropes? Even jumped into one and starting firing? Little tiny teddy bears.... People were saying the same thing about Ewoks, Jar Jar, etc.

It's not SW without some inherent slapstick, comic, and ridiculous shit going on.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I can't get over how many critics just explain away the shitty storytelling in episode 8 as being edgy and different. I could go on and on about it but Luke is clearly the worst and I sure don't buy Rian Johnson's "times change, people change" explanation either. When a character's defining trait is his eternal optimism even when everyone else is telling him the opposite, they better give me a good explanation why he would try to murder a child in cold blood. And I'm sorry but a vague force dream is nowhere near enough to cause him to flip his entire outlook 180 without a second thought.

Here's the thing, though...I can totally buy Luke having a moment of panic when he starts to sense that Kylo may be turning toward the dark side. He surely knows how many people died because of his father at this point, and so I don't find it totally implausible that he could have considered killing him in a moment of weakness because he fears the same thing will happen all over again and he won't be powerful enough to stop it this time. And, as we saw, he didn't actually go through with it, though ironically it was him thinking of killing Kylo that ended up turning Kylo fully.

 

[Ohio]

I mean it's all subjective anyway right. To be honest with you my expectations for these new movies are so fucking low, that if it's entertaining i'll walk away a happy man.

The second you start to analyze every little thing, you go down a rabbit hole you will never get out of. This was realized with the prequels. And only seems to be getting worse now.

The whole Leia floating through mid air is hilarious! It's just comical. I'm glad they did it because it's so bad it makes me laugh.

Do you realize that Ewoks beat down AT-STs with rocks and stones and ropes? Even jumped into one and starting firing? Little tiny teddy bears.... People were saying the same thing about Ewoks, Jar Jar, etc.

It's not SW without some inherent slapstick, comic, and ridiculous shit going on.

That's fair. Honestly, my biggest gripe is with the characters. I have no reason to care about any of them at this point and that has ruined the trilogy for me. I know I'm not alone with that. Honestly the only character I don't hate at this point is Rey, but even her I don't really care about. She's just kind of there. Like "hey, look, here's your new self-taught Jedi, now go love her because reasons!"

I think @howler1313 is right; episode 9 seems doomed because the characters just aren't appealing at this point. I have no desire to see the closure point of shitty characters.

 

[gourimoko]

That's fair. Honestly, my biggest gripe is with the characters. I have no reason to care about any of them at this point and that has ruined the trilogy for me. I know I'm not alone with that. Honestly the only character I don't hate at this point is Rey, but even her I don't really care about. She's just kind of there. Like "hey, look, here's your new self-taught Jedi, now go love her because reasons!"

I think @howler1313 is right; episode 9 seems doomed because the characters just aren't appealing at this point. I have no desire to see the closure point of shitty characters.

I think this is spot on... No matter what happens in Episode 9, does any of it really matter? Nothing has actually changed other than Han, Luke, and Snoke being written out of the story. But functionally, nothing is different... Somehow, my guess, is that Poe becomes commander of the Rebellion since everyone else is dead and Leia didn't film any scenes.

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

I have a Star Wars tattoo taking up the top right part of my arm.

So when I say TLJ made me not care about future Star Wars I really mean it.

Despite my dislike of the prequels they still added to the lore of the universe and didn't damper my passion.

TFA and TLJ have all taken place in what the span of a week? Maybe 2?

Shitty development of ideas, shitty execution, and shitty treatment of characters. Rian Johnson got too high on his own farts that he thought any original idea was a good idea.

Yeah everyone expected Luke to have at least one lightsaber fight. Just because you decided to kill him off without him even physically leaving the planet he was on doesn't make you a cinematic genius.

It's like I've been receiving the longest and greatest lap dance of my life just for the girl to pull her pants down to reveal a big floppy dick. Now I have the worst blue balls and I can't even look back on the dance fondly without remembering the horror to come.

 

[gourimoko]

I have a Star Wars tattoo taking up the top right part of my arm.

So when I say TLJ made me not care about future Star Wars I really mean it.

Okay damn.. you win!

Despite my dislike of the prequels they still added to the lore of the universe and didn't damper my passion.

Agreed completely.

TFA and TLJ have all taken place in what the span of a week? Maybe 2?

This is a very good point.

By my count, The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi take place over approximately eight and a half days in total. So you're spot on here, it's roughly a little more than a week.

Shitty development of ideas, shitty execution, and shitty treatment of characters. Rian Johnson got too high on his own farts that he thought any original idea was a good idea.

Yeah everyone expected Luke to have at least one lightsaber fight. Just because you decided to kill him off without him even physically leaving the planet he was on doesn't make you a cinematic genius.

Yep, agreed... The entire movie and the direction of this trilogy seems to be to undo everything of the previous six films; it's very strange to see play out in real life.

It's like I've been receiving the longest and greatest lap dance of my life just for the girl to pull her pants down to reveal a big floppy dick. Now I have the worst blue balls and I can't even look back on the dance fondly without remembering the horror to come.

 

[Lyst]

I think this is spot on... No matter what happens in Episode 9, does any of it really matter? Nothing has actually changed other than Han, Luke, and Snoke being written out of the story. But functionally, nothing is different... Somehow, my guess, is that Poe becomes commander of the Rebellion since everyone else is dead and Leia didn't film any scenes.

Honestly Snoke was probably my favorite character out of this whole new trilogy- the mystery, the darkness, the evil. Anddddd- then he dies like a friggin' pussy.