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The Transgender Issue

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I'd say it should largely be left up to the leagues or whoever runs each individual event. If they want to establish standards for the inclusion of transgender athletes, fine. If they don't, also fine.

I think that's certainly true, but it somewhat ignores the reality of all sorts of non-legal pressures being applied to such organizations to take one stance or the other. I assume your okay with others trying to influence those decisions either way?
 
1) I still don't believe that "gender" (not biological sex) is a logical dividing line for the usage of words such as male/female or man/woman, and for most distinctions we draw in society. As I pointed out earlier, this usage of "gender" really means nothing more than "gender roles", which are fluid between societies, and which change over time. Moreover, there are a lot of people who argue that gender roles should not exist at all, and work for the day when it is just as "male" to wear a skirt and makeup as it is "female". And others argue that there are far more than just two genders anyway, which means using the binary terms male/female to describe "gender" simply doesn't work.

2) Those arguing for greater transgender rights are often inconsistent/contrary in terms of how the terms male/female and man/woman are used. The most common definition pushed by transgender activists is that self-identification alone by a person is sufficient to determine "gender" to the outside world.

But even most such advocates acknowledge that re-definition doesn't work for questions such as athletic competitions, where everyone admits that self-identification alone cannot be the rule. Very few people will seriously argue that a biological man who self-identifies as a "woman" can compete as a "woman" in sporting events. We all seem to agree on that even here.

So if we say "women's tennis", what exactly does "women" mean in that context? Does it include someone who is a woman simply because they self-identify as one? Because that's the definition some transgender activists say we all should use in ordinary language. Or does it really mean "biological woman?" Or at least "born male but through chemicals and other stuff is as biologically female as possible."

The point is, the meaning of words should be consistent, and not have completely contradictory meanings based on different situations. That's simply confusing as hell. And it was the point I was making to @David in the other thread about dating a "woman" with a dick, balls, and a five o'clock shadow. If someone is interested in finding a boyfriend/girlfriend/mate/spouse, how that prospective mate self-identifies is pretty close to irrelevant compared to how they appear, and their biological appendages.

tl;dr Biological realities are sufficiently important across a very wide range of human interactions that they should be the primary means by which we identify who is male, versus who is female.
 
Transgender weightlifter wins international women’s competition, sets national record

http://www.outsports.com/2017/3/20/14983388/transgender-weightlifting-laurel-hubbard-wins


If I was a woman in that competition I'd be very unhappy about this.

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Transgender weightlifter wins international women’s competition, sets national record

http://www.outsports.com/2017/3/20/14983388/transgender-weightlifting-laurel-hubbard-wins


If I was a woman in that competition I'd be very unhappy about this.

I dont see how your not.

I am very pro gender fluidity, gay marriage, equal rights, etc.

But in a competition for women only where power matters and they allow a person born as a male, I think that is cheating and unfair.

All the arguments about testosterone levels and such you want, they were still born a man.

I do feel bad for Laurel though, as she has had a tough road for sure identifying as a woman in the land of body building, but that doesnt mean its fair to the rest of the competition.
 
I don't think any solution involving language or laws will cause the change that I am looking for. Here are the problems that I see:

-We say a girl (with a vagina) who identifies as a boy and otherwise has looked like a boy should use the bathroom that she/he chooses to so that they don't get bullied. Like, we wouldn't want everyone at school (or work with an adult) to know about their transgender "issue." They might get fired. They might get teased. How come nobody wants to talk about just not firing or teasing people based on this kind of SHIT?

Here's how it should go:
"I didn't know Joanne was actually a dude."
"Yeah, but she is a he, at least down low."
"Oh, so what does she er... or he... like to be called and is err.... Joanne...still coming to our work happy hour?"
"We should ask her about both things. Now let's get back to life."

The problem isn't the language. The problem isn't the laws. It's all a grand distraction: just respect everyone you know, and toggle the respect that you have for them based on their actions. Simple. I guess I don't see the big deal.

Now one more thing that bothers me. Where do these assignments of what's boy/girl come from? Are we still OK with them? Girls own pink & purple, they have long hair, they play dolls, dress up, and they are less aggressive. Boys fight, everything is a sword, and they own blue. These go on-and-on through life, and if you are OK with them, do they belong to genders not vaginas/penises? So now if my son is playing pretend fight, with a sword, with long hair, while in a pink dress with makeup on, what does that mean? I have no confusion over his gender because I have no thought about it. I just ask him who he's fighting, and if I should help him or be an angry giant to fight against him.

All I know is that Ken was the best Street Fighter 2 character to fight with, and he had long hair. Just sayin...
 
I don't think any solution involving language or laws will cause the change that I am looking for. Here are the problems that I see:

-We say a girl (with a vagina) who identifies as a boy and otherwise has looked like a boy should use the bathroom that she/he chooses to so that they don't get bullied. Like, we wouldn't want everyone at school (or work with an adult) to know about their transgender "issue." They might get fired. They might get teased. How come nobody wants to talk about just not firing or teasing people based on this kind of SHIT?

Here's how it should go:
"I didn't know Joanne was actually a dude."
"Yeah, but she is a he, at least down low."
"Oh, so what does she er... or he... like to be called and is err.... Joanne...still coming to our work happy hour?"
"We should ask her about both things. Now let's get back to life."

The problem isn't the language. The problem isn't the laws. It's all a grand distraction: just respect everyone you know, and toggle the respect that you have for them based on their actions. Simple. I guess I don't see the big deal.

Now one more thing that bothers me. Where do these assignments of what's boy/girl come from? Are we still OK with them? Girls own pink & purple, they have long hair, they play dolls, dress up, and they are less aggressive. Boys fight, everything is a sword, and they own blue. These go on-and-on through life, and if you are OK with them, do they belong to genders not vaginas/penises? So now if my son is playing pretend fight, with a sword, with long hair, while in a pink dress with makeup on, what does that mean? I have no confusion over his gender because I have no thought about it. I just ask him who he's fighting, and if I should help him or be an angry giant to fight against him.

All I know is that Ken was the best Street Fighter 2 character to fight with, and he had long hair. Just sayin...

I guess so, man.
 
How you identify does not give you extra rights.

I don't see it as an extra right, but allowing people to be on the same playing field as others. Most trans people aren't asking for bathroom immunity, but to go to the bathroom that makes sense for them. Why would a trans woman want to go to a men's restroom? Though not quite the same, this feels like the conservative argument about gay marriage being a "special right." No, it's asking for equal rights. It's not a special right to have gay marriage, there's no logical argument for that. And I don't think this is a special right either.

These laws force people who have transitioned into restrooms that they don't identify with, which may make them uncomfortable and I believe would cause more issues both ways. We'd be more likely to see a woman in the men's restroom and vice versa creating more confusion and concern.

Women's restrooms can also be safer spaces for trans-women because they aren't in a closed space without surveillance where a violent man may target them. It just doesn't make any sense to me to force people to go to their "birth" bathroom.

Overall I'm for moving towards unisex bathrooms though long term.
 
But yea you cant force people to be attracted.

This quote is dying for a "hold my beer" meme of someone. There's gotta be someone out there who takes issue with this. :chuckle:
 
I don't see it as an extra right, but allowing people to be on the same playing field as others. Most trans people aren't asking for bathroom immunity, but to go to the bathroom that makes sense for them. Why would a trans woman want to go to a men's restroom? Though not quite the same, this feels like the conservative argument about gay marriage being a "special right." No, it's asking for equal rights. It's not a special right to have gay marriage, there's no logical argument for that. And I don't think this is a special right either.

These laws force people who have transitioned into restrooms that they don't identify with, which may make them uncomfortable and I believe would cause more issues both ways. We'd be more likely to see a woman in the men's restroom and vice versa creating more confusion and concern.

Women's restrooms can also be safer spaces for trans-women because they aren't in a closed space without surveillance where a violent man may target them. It just doesn't make any sense to me to force people to go to their "birth" bathroom.

Overall I'm for moving towards unisex bathrooms though long term.
From my understanding of the law in NC, all people had to do was pay a small fee to update their information reflecting their identified sex.
 
From my understanding of the law in NC, all people had to do was pay a small fee to update their information reflecting their identified sex.
NC teachers are always complaining about their pay. The state should really think about increasing the fee to supplement the teachers pay.
 
I don't see it as an extra right, but allowing people to be on the same playing field as others. Most trans people aren't asking for bathroom immunity, but to go to the bathroom that makes sense for them. Why would a trans woman want to go to a men's restroom? Though not quite the same, this feels like the conservative argument about gay marriage being a "special right." No, it's asking for equal rights. It's not a special right to have gay marriage, there's no logical argument for that. And I don't think this is a special right either.

These laws force people who have transitioned into restrooms that they don't identify with, which may make them uncomfortable and I believe would cause more issues both ways. We'd be more likely to see a woman in the men's restroom and vice versa creating more confusion and concern.

Women's restrooms can also be safer spaces for trans-women because they aren't in a closed space without surveillance where a violent man may target them. It just doesn't make any sense to me to force people to go to their "birth" bathroom.

Overall I'm for moving towards unisex bathrooms though long term.
I don't mean this in jest, im asking sincerely.

Youre more comfortable shitting in a room full of women? Im not. Id never use a public bathroom again.
 
I don't mean this in jest, im asking sincerely.

Youre more comfortable shitting in a room full of women? Im not. Id never use a public bathroom again.

Typically unisex bathrooms are single toilet individual rooms, not a full, multiple toilet public restroom that several people use at once.
 

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