The Transgender Issue

[The Human Q-Tip]

The problem isn't the language. The problem isn't the laws.

No, those are very much a problem because there are so many real-world legal and ancillary rights that are dependent on how we define "male" and "female". Just saying "respect everyone" doesn't address issues like athletic competitions, changing rooms, etc..

It's all a grand distraction: just respect everyone you know, and toggle the respect that you have for them based on their actions. Simple. I guess I don't see the big deal.

Even if you could ignore the legal and related issues, what you suggest in terms of "respect everyone you know" is just a slogan. It's the same as saying "we should just end all wars by everyone refusing to fight." It sounds great, and nobody would argue that's how things should be in an ideal world, but there is absolutely no way to make everyone actually do that.

The way I look at it as this -- everyone has the "right" to think of themselves however they choose. If you want to think you're a woman even though you were born a male, have at it. And in a casual social situation where such a person introduces themselves to me personally as a female, there is no reason to make an issue out of it and hurt feelings.

However, a person's right to imagine themselves how they choose is not the same thing as requiring the rest of society, including the law, to recognize that as reality. The comparison to imagining yourself as a "furry", or Batman, is actually valid. You are entitled to consider yourself Batman, but you're not entitled to have me treat you as if you really are.

 

[natedagg]

No, those are very much a problem because there are so many real-world legal and ancillary rights that are dependent on how we define "male" and "female". Just saying "respect everyone" doesn't address issues like athletic competitions, changing rooms, etc..



Even if you could ignore the legal and related issues, what you suggest in terms of "respect everyone you know" is just a slogan. It's the same as saying "we should just end all wars by everyone refusing to fight." It sounds great, and nobody would argue that's how things should be in an ideal world, but there is absolutely no way to make everyone actually do that.

The way I look at it as this -- everyone has the "right" to think of themselves however they choose. If you want to think you're a woman even though you were born a male, have at it. And in a casual social situation where such a person introduces themselves to me personally as a female, there is no reason to make an issue out of it and hurt feelings.

However, a person's right to imagine themselves how they choose is not the same thing as requiring the rest of society, including the law, to recognize that as reality. The comparison to imagining yourself as a "furry", or Batman, is actually valid. You are entitled to consider yourself Batman, but you're not entitled to have me treat you as if you really are.

I am largely in accordance with this, BUT, I thought it was scientifically demonstrable that although some people are born with dicks, they fancy themselves women. Like, they had identified brain changes or chromosomal somethings-or-others that demonstrated this. That's where I struggle. But that doesn't really solve things either, if someone is just predisposed to being transgender.

 

[David.]

I am largely in accordance with this, BUT, I thought it was scientifically demonstrable that although some people are born with dicks, they fancy themselves women. Like, they had identified brain changes or chromosomal somethings-or-others that demonstrated this. That's where I struggle. But that doesn't really solve things either, if someone is just predisposed to being transgender.

That ventures into the mental illness claim though. There are differences in the brain scan of a person with schizophrenia, but that doesnt make them a different type of human being. It means they suffer from shizophrenia.

If a human being had a brain scan unique to other humans and all other human beings with a similar scan felt they too were unicorn, you cant force them legally to be addressed as unicorn, and they arent unicorn, theyre human beings. Their brians are just telling them theyre not. A trans person isnt actually the other sex, their brain is just telling them they are, in sincere cases.

If a trans persons brain was different (and proposal doesnt even require it to be, it is simply based in identification), it doesnt make them the opposite sex. If a man is walking down the street wearing a dress, and i asked you if they were a man or a woman, in an intellectually honest way, how would you respond to ME?





Linking to qs point, i could listen to jordan Peterson all day long. Hes fighting a different battle in canada, where there's legislation that restricts free speech. But he explores that same vein; you cant choose your reputation. You cant force that on someone. You can want to, but that doesnt make it so. You cant force someone to respect you. You cant choose your adjective, you cant really choose your pronoun. You can be polite to someone socially, but that doesnt make them the opposite sex and you shouldn't be required to by law. This is writing into legislation that others need to accept the reputation you desire and descriptors you choose.

 

[David.]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI&feature=youtu.be

"If you identify as a lesbian, go for it. But some some women have penises. Etc etc if you dont find those women attractive, its bc you dont think trans women are real women".

No. And yes.

"Youre implying that trans women are men"

Yes

"Trans women have a long history of being accused of being rapists."

What? No.

"Its the logic behind bathroom bills."

Lol.

"You may say, I'm allowed to have my preferences. And technically, youre right."

No, not technically. Only "right."

Goes on to compare "choosing" not to date short women to choosing not to date trans women.

Then says the reason why its a bad analogy is because short women don't face the same discrimination as trans women.

Yes thats why its a bad analogy.

"And you cant say "thats just my preference, the end!"

..yea anyone can. It seems like youve got a habit of hectoring people to be attracted to trans people and youre hearing "..shut the fuck up and go away" a lot.

Im just gonna make a youtube channel. Would be much easier than this.

 

[The Oi]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI&feature=youtu.be

"If you identify as a lesbian, go for it. But some some women have penises. Etc etc if you dont find those women attractive, its bc you dont think trans women are real women".

No. And yes.

"Youre implying that trans women are men"

Yes

"Trans women have a long history of being accused of being rapists."

What? No.

"Its the logic behind bathroom bills."

Lol.

"You may say, I'm allowed to have my preferences. And technically, youre right."

No, not technically. Only "right."

Goes on to compare "choosing" not to date short women to choosing not to date trans women.

Then says the reason why its a bad analogy is because short women don't face the same discrimination as trans women.

Yes thats why its a bad analogy.

"And you cant say "thats just my preference, the end!"

..yea anyone can. It seems like youve got a habit of hectoring people to be attracted to trans people and youre hearing "..shut the fuck up and go away" a lot.

Im just gonna make a youtube channel. Would be much easier than this.

I don't understand what this person is saying. There's too much of this new millennial vocabulary.

 

[David.]

I don't understand what this person is saying. There's too much of this new millennial vocabulary.

If you learn Klingon you can only use it to talk to other Klingon. Its useless to the human race.

 

[-Akronite-]

"Trans women have a long history of being accused of being rapists."

What? No.

"Its the logic behind bathroom bills."

Lol.

NOT arguing the preference thing because to me it's very personal and I have very mixed feelings myself.

But the quotes I left up I don't agree with. Trans women, like gay men, have been painted as potential predators. Because their livelihood is seen by far-right conservatives/hardcore Christians as perverse, they get equated with pedophiles and the like. We saw it for years in the Boy Scouts as they banned gay leaders because for some reason that makes them more liable to attack children.

These bathroom bills are also so much about "protecting our women and children," not only from discomfort, but from being attacked by this group of perverts. So much of the rhetoric is about the threats that exist by allowing trans people to choose their own bathrooms. Yes, we can claim some people will want to abuse the trans movement to sexually assault people, but we know who this actually affects the most, trans people.

 

[David.]

NOT arguing the preference thing because to me it's very personal and I have very mixed feelings myself.

But the quotes I left up I don't agree with. Trans women, like gay men, have been painted as potential predators. Because their livelihood is seen by far-right conservatives/hardcore Christians as perverse, they get equated with pedophiles and the like. We saw it for years in the Boy Scouts as they banned gay leaders because for some reason that makes them more liable to attack children.

These bathroom bills are also so much about "protecting our women and children," not only from discomfort, but from being attacked by this group of perverts. So much of the rhetoric is about the threats that exist by allowing trans people to choose their own bathrooms. Yes, we can claim some people will want to abuse the trans movement to sexually assault people, but we know who this actually affects the most, trans people.

Heres where i am.

I came into the conversation after the volume of christians was as deafening as it appears to have been. I cant speak on their behalf, with that said. I communicate with many.. I don't think the right is that radical currently but it looks like they have been I the past and i disagree with many on current issues so i get it. I respect classical liberals too, but i think the current brand of the left is a bit radical and liberalism isnt really liberalism right now. The left is a little radical right now. Sam harris is right when he says we need a new middle

We can unpack the accusation of predatorialism. I hear what was said in the video and see that as conflation and misrepresenting the opposing argument. People aren't worried about TRANS people being predatory as much as they are men using the bathroom bill to their perverted benefit. I don't see anyone claiming trans people are predatory, but outlier fringe bigoted people thinking gay people are predatory seems vaguely familiar.

I don't necessarily agree with your position on who is impacted the most. We have to consider the peripheral effect of replacing biology with identity. Even after that, how many people of this very small amount of people are having issues with not being allowed into the bathroom? We don't have predictive stats on how many predators will use the Bill to their advantage and we dont know the effect on people that aren't comfortable sharing privacy by force.

Just walking it out a bit, one trans person will always be one trans person. Any time they go to the bathroom or changing room is going to potentially effect a handful of non trans people.

A point no one is bringing up is that this is encouraging animus towards trans people. Being forced to compete with, and having your privacy and safety impeded on by legislation is going to upset people.. You cab disagree with them, but their feelings are valid too. Just as much as trans people

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I am largely in accordance with this, BUT, I thought it was scientifically demonstrable that although some people are born with dicks, they fancy themselves women. Like, they had identified brain changes or chromosomal somethings-or-others that demonstrated this.

There are some folks who legitimately are born intersex, with genetic abnormalities. But that's not what we're really talking about, and I don't think it's what you're referring to.

What we do know is that if we examine the brains of males and females, there are various characteristics that tend to be more common/prominent in people of one gender than another. But it's a bell curve type of thing -- there are men whose brains will have some characteristics that are more often found in females, and vice-versa.

For example, women tend to have a larger hippocampus, which has something to do with memory, and a larger left caudate, which has to do with communication skills. But that doesn't mean that a man with a larger hippocampus is not still a man. He's just a man closer to the end of the bell curve for male hippocampus.

Also, these kind of cognitive differences have nothing to do with the social roles of being "feminine" or "masculine" that are the core of what some call "gender" -- a larger left caudate doesn't make you want to wear a dress, lipstick, or speak in a higher voice. So there are differences, but they have nothing to do with gender roles.

Finally -- and this is a big point -- the entire focus of the transgender movement is that it involves a choice -- what you "self-identify" as. They'd be hotly opposed to any objective definition of male or female, including brain scans.

 

[Man Called X]

....

Was grocery shopping.

Had someone tell me I was transphobic because I called my newborn daughter a girl before she has the chance to identify what she is.

I told the girl "Go fuck yourself. She's a 14th century viking. My psychic told me that's what she was in a past life."

I give up with this issue.

I'm done appeasing every fucking person in the world.

You have a dick, or a vagina. Or in rare cases, both.

Anything else is just bullshit rhetoric to make people feel better about themselves.

 

[-Akronite-]

A point no one is bringing up is that this is encouraging animus towards trans people. Being forced to compete with, and having your privacy and safety impeded on by legislation is going to upset people.. You cab disagree with them, but their feelings are valid too. Just as much as trans people

But won't we be having similar effects by having a trans woman go into a men's bathroom? Again, for children and non-trans people that don't get out much, wouldn't it be more shocking/uncomfortable to see a woman walk into the men's room before you get a good look and realize she must be trans?

And to me there is a big difference between affecting someone because it challenges their notion of binary gender and actually having an impact on someone's livelihood. Again, it can be less safe, especially depending on the state, for a trans woman to go to the men's room. And it's an unnecessary embarrassment and hardship on trans people to force this on them. I do not see how allowing trans people to use their restroom of choice impedes on the privacy or safety of non-trans people. It literally only affects the behavior of trans people.

Let's say there isn't rhetoric that pushes the false idea of trans=perverted and predatory (there is, but let's ignore it), how do these laws even protect people? It's already illegal to sexually assault someone. It doesn't become okay because you dress up as a woman beforehand to exploit this trans loophole. I'm still really not sure what is being accomplished here besides de-legitimizing the trans movement and pushing the aforementioned false narrative. It is no coincidence that these laws started popping up around the same time we starting talking about trans people as if they were human beings.

 

[David.]

Oh and as far as the video goes

....

Was grocery shopping.

Had someone tell me I was transphobic because I called my newborn daughter a girl before she has the chance to identify what she is.

I told the girl "Go fuck yourself. She's a 14th century viking. My psychic told me that's what she was in a past life."

I give up with this issue.

I'm done appeasing every fucking person in the world.

You have a dick, or a vagina. Or in rare cases, both.

Anything else is just bullshit rhetoric to make people feel better about themselves.

Yea we're censoring ourselves to the point that we cannot have discussions about things that are threats to our country. I was called a bigot and transphobe by more than a dozen ppl today over at huffpo for pointing out the victims created by their agenda.

Those words are just synonymous for "shut up". There are conversations we need to have that we can't. I was beside myself when i found out about terrorism and immigration issues in europe. Couldn't believe they refused to collect stats out of fear of accusations of racism. Result? You dont address a problem.

Found out we're doing the same stuff here. Its incredible. Most of these people mean well, im sure, but they just aren't looking at things logically. I got uneasy seeing people defending islam in response to people being murdered in the name of immigration and islam. Its infuriating. Diversity and acceptance is code for "we value v the lives and safety of others over our own". 14 year old girls are getting raped in bathrooms at school. Etc.

This stuff is cancer. I know this is offtrack, but really its all the same.

 

[David.]

But won't we be having similar effects by having a trans woman go into a men's bathroom? Again, for children and non-trans people that don't get out much, wouldn't it be more shocking/uncomfortable to see a woman walk into the men's room before you get a good look and realize she must be trans?

And to me there is a big difference between affecting someone because it challenges their notion of binary gender and actually having an impact on someone's livelihood. Again, it can be less safe, especially depending on the state, for a trans woman to go to the men's room. And it's an unnecessary embarrassment and hardship on trans people to force this on them. I do not see how allowing trans people to use their restroom of choice impedes on the privacy or safety of non-trans people. It literally only affects the behavior of trans people.

Let's say there isn't rhetoric that pushes the false idea of trans=perverted and predatory (there is, but let's ignore it), how do these laws even protect people? It's already illegal to sexually assault someone. It doesn't become okay because you dress up as a woman beforehand to exploit this trans loophole. I'm still really not sure what is being accomplished here besides de-legitimizing the trans movement and pushing the aforementioned false narrative. It is no coincidence that these laws started popping up around the same time we starting talking about trans people as if they were human beings.

I'll respond when i get off work. I've been having conversations about this issue all weekend and its good to see stuff that isnt talking points

 

[Wrathe]

Because their livelihood is seen by far-right conservatives/hardcore Christians as perverse

This of course makes the diametrically opposed known as the far-left liberal/hardcore Satanists. I dunno about any of you, but I can't trust the words from a far-left liberal/hardcore Satanist, can you?

 

[Wrathe]

Interesting article, I don't know enough about the various Dr's in this field, but this one is asserting even after SRS, the depression over one's sexuality is reoccurring and feeding the depression/suicide of this group of people. The actual assignment isn't solving the issue, which would seem to contend it's still a mental issue?

I dunno, that David/Brenda bit of the article was some F'ed up stuff too: http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/untold-dark-story-of-transgenderism/