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The Transgender Issue

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Nathan For You was literally one of the greatest shows in television history. And that was one of the best episodes they had.
 
You should check again; I've cited the DSM-V about 50 times in this thread and others. If you're not sure about it, you can refer to the APA's writeup on the changes from the DSM-IV and the DSM-V. But being transgendered is not a mental disorder in and of itself and this was specifically changed in the DSM-V.

Gender Dysphoria is Mental Illness, the key is feeling distress, so no, if you're transgendered and feel no distress, you're great, you have GID and that's NOT defined a mental disorder. If you're looking into SRS, one of the requirements for that is the showing of distress.
 
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I still feel you're really missing the mark on what I'm saying... When I say de-stigmatize mental illness, that's not at all equivalent to de-stigmatizing pedophilia or child molestation or what have you itself. I'm not saying "hey, so what if you hear voices in your head, DO YOU!" I'm saying we shouldn't act like it's someone's fault if they have a mental illness and we shouldn't treat mental illness as something that makes you a freak on its own.

What pseudo-scientific group? Are you saying that someone attracted to children is NOT mentally ill? That person is sick. Acting on their urges would be horribly immoral, obviously. The point is that we shouldn't make someone feel inhuman for having a mental illness. We should have an environment where people feel that they can get help and not be judged so harshly for seeking such help, whether that's someone very sick trying to overcome sick urges or, far more commonly, someone dealing with depression.

Racism is a fine analogy. Let's say someone has racist thoughts. When a black guy walks by they always think something awful. If they started yelling the n-word that'd be horrid. But if that person came to me and explained these thoughts, seeking help and maybe looking for opportunities to talk to more black people* in order to combat their internalized racism (whatever the cause), I wouldn't judge them. This is WAY harder to apply to someone with sexual thoughts about children, obviously, but still I'd rather that person have a way to seek help than let them stew in their sick thoughts and self-hate until they hurt someone.

*I'm not recommending pedophiles spend more time around children, the analogy is actually not that good. :chuckle:

Completely agree with the idea that people should feel they have the opportunity to get help with mental health issues, including pedophilia urges, without being condemned. I see your point.
 

Nathan For You is on Comedy Central.

It is a bizarre, cringingly embarrassing show that is hilarious. Nathan is so awkward it hurts.
 
Gender Dysphoria is Mental Illness, the key is feeling distress, so no, if your transgendered and feel no distress, you're great, you have GID and that's NOT defined a mental disorder. If you're looking into SRS, one of the requirements for that is the showing of distress.
I think the argument is being trans doesn't necessitate gender Dysphoria. Dysphoria comes from people bullying.

Idk how blacks and gay people have been significantly lower in suicide rates if America has hated them all so badly. Anyways, the argument above is predicated on dsm definition and whether or not you agree with them. People think they've been politicized, and the definition changed specifically for this issue, and the redef was necessary to reclassify for things like healthcare etc
 
I think the argument is being trans doesn't necessitate gender Dysphoria. Dysphoria comes from people bullying.

Idk how blacks and gay people have been significantly lower in suicide rates if America has hated them all so badly. Anyways, the argument above is predicated on dsm definition and whether or not you agree with them. People think they've been politicized, and the definition changed specifically for this issue, and the redef was necessary to reclassify for things like healthcare etc

Is the second paragraph, specifically about suicide, serious?
 
I think the argument is being trans doesn't necessitate gender Dysphoria. Dysphoria comes from people bullying.

Idk how blacks and gay people have been significantly lower in suicide rates if America has hated them all so badly. Anyways, the argument above is predicated on dsm definition and whether or not you agree with them. People think they've been politicized, and the definition changed specifically for this issue, and the redef was necessary to reclassify for things like healthcare etc

Dysphoria is a bit of a pre-req for SRS, no? If you're having an operation, or desire for one, it's a mental disease. If you have no desires for surgery and are cool natural in whatever you feel, then no, you're not necessarily suffering from a mental disease (at least not in this case).

The change from 4-5 was specifically to create this pocket that wouldn't be considered mentally handicapped.

Anyways, an interesting read on this as well: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinio...-seeking-a-cure-but-getting-the-wrong-answers
 
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Dysphoria is a bit of a pre-req for SRS, no? If you're having an operation, or desire for one, it's a mental disease. If you have no desires for surgery and are cool natural in whatever you feel, then no, you're not necessarily suffering from a mental disease (at least not in this case).

The change from 4-5 was specifically to create this pocket that wouldn't be considered mentally handicapped.

Fyi- caffeine withdrawal and premenstrual related attitude are now mental illnesses and believing your biological is simply sex is wrong isn't.

Anyways, an interesting read on this as well: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinio...-seeking-a-cure-but-getting-the-wrong-answers
Well that's the rub.

I believe that's a mental issue. People are going to go by the textbook definition which is now something about distress. That definition changed since the last dsm. You are right about that pocket being recently developed, seemingkt specifically for this issue. I.. Don't even think things like sociopathy would qualify under that definition. Or narcissism. But that's what's happening.


Fyi- caffeine withdrawal and premenstrual induced attitude are now mental illnesses and transgenderism isn't. Consider what the classification actually means considering that point.

The other side is saying there are people who (I'm sorry, I'm trying to watch my tone) casually think their genitals are wrong but are somehow not distressed about it. But they want reassignment, some don't.

Basically the push is to encourage people to be more accepting, and that there's nothing wrong with them, and the problem will all go away. I just see a lot of moving parts and they're all moving towards an ideological position. I agree that people should be more accepting - the worse that can happen is they won't feel as shitty. No reason not to.

Just an aside, but 20% post op regret the surgery and I think 80% of adults who felt confused about their gender growing up are glad they stuck with their biology. The next argument is "what is right for kids". Because starting the transition young is going to have the best result, so long as these people don't regret the fuck out of it. The ones that guess right seem to be more emotionally healthy as they're more passable.

I wish this went without saying but I'm guessing it doesn't, juts because someone thinks it's not mentally healthy for your mind to disagree with reality doesn't mean you hate trans people or don't feel for them or want to crucify and then burn their corpse. It's just how some people may see the notion that you're a girl trapped in a man's body or vice versa. That's hardly unreasonable.
It's not a knock on the person, it's an assessment of the condition.
 
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Is the second paragraph, specifically about suicide, serious?
Well, just looking at some numbers but 90% LGB members reported harassment in the past year, 30% excessive bullying in school. These numbers aren't far off from trans and their suicidality was 3 times that of straight people, trans being 10x.

Apparently it's impossible to find suicide rates of slaves, and black people commit suicide at about half the rate as white people even though whites have all the privilege and none of the oppression.

White people have more mood disorders and substance abuse than the aforementioned demos. So to imply that oppression and social acceptance is the main determinant in suicidality as point C, point B being mood and drugs stemming from point A. oppression and nonacceptance, the arguments don't really flesh out.

Absolutely none of these demos comes close to touching 50% that you see in other demography.


So if we're following the model of social acceptance = better mental health which is the crux of the argument, it actually doesn't flesh out.. Black and Latino lgb people actually are increasingly suicidal even with all the progress in widespread acceptance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093285/

to imply there is less acceptance today than ten years ago is lunacy. Suicide rates should be dropping according to proposed logic. They're rising.
 
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Well, just looking at some numbers but 90% LGB members reported harassment in the past year, 30% excessive bullying in school. These numbers aren't far off from trans and their suicidality was 3 times that of straight people, trans being 10x.

Apparently it's impossible to find suicide rates of slaves, and black people commit suicide at about half the rate as white people even though whites have all the privilege and none of the oppression. White people have more mood disorders and substance abuse than the aforementioned demos. So to imply that oppression and social acceptance is the main determinant in suicidality as point C, point B being mood and drugs stemming from point A. oppression and nonacceptance, the arguments don't really follow.

Absolutely none of these demos comes close to touching 50% that you see in other demography.


So if we're following the model of social acceptance = better mental health which is the crux of the argument, it actually doesn't flesh out.. Black and Latino lgb people actually are increasingly suicidal even with all the progress in widespread acceptance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3093285/

But you realize that a large portion of people who do commit suicide when they're young may not yet be out, right?

And that societal normative privelage wouldn't cause a single individual to commit suicide? That's specifically talking about whole groups of people comparitively?

I think the African-American suicide rates are much lower because of the importance of religion in their culture/neighborhood/home, as well as a lack of reporting. Is a drug overdose suicide if no note was left saying that amount of drugs was took intentionally?
 
But you realize that a large portion of people who do commit suicide when they're young may not yet be out, right?
it's possible but we have no way of knowing. Attempted suicide data given by those still living is more reliable and that is what these statistics are based off of.



And that societal normative privelage wouldn't cause a single individual to commit suicide? That's specifically talking about whole groups of people comparitively?
well I like where your head is - talking about individuals rather than collectives and I couldn't be happier - but that sure throws a wrench in every other argument we've heard in these threads for awhile, philosophically and in practice. If we're comparing collectives based on social oppression, the normative class by definition should be the least suicidal if we accept the idea that they are the norm, most accepted, and least oppressed and those factors are the main determinants in suicidality.

According to the idea of white privilege and the suggestion of cause of suicide, these two positions thoroughly contradict each other.


I think the African-American suicide rates are much lower because of the importance of religion in their culture/neighborhood/home, as well as a lack of reporting. Is a drug overdose suicide if no note was left saying that amount of drugs was took intentionally?

The religious disparity doesn't account for the suicide disparity.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/racial-and-ethnic-composition/

No way to determine if suicide by drugs is happening more with one ethnicity or the other, but if it were happening, it's likely it'd be more whites.


cdc_drug_overdoses_1999_2015_race_chart_vox.png


If you want my opinion, whites are more neurotic than blacks and I think that plays a role.

[PDF] Race Differences in Personality Race Differences in ... - people.vcu.edu
www.people.vcu.edu › Publications

Then again,women are more neurotic and commit suicide at 33% the rate as men.
 
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Women attempt suicide nearly 3x more often, but men complete suicide over 3x more often
 

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