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The Walking Dead

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Yeah there’s definitely some holes in it, like Q Tip said all it’d take is one person to fire a gun before the ambush...it’s not super likely to work...

But it’s fiction. A TV show. I mean, it was a cool idea/moment. I’d rather just suffer some suspension of disbelief and be entertained. Every show we watch requires some of that, this one no less than any other.
 
So did they not do the thing where Rick convinced Negan that his way is the right way before slashing his throat? Because I always liked that in the comics. Negan had that, "Oh shit" moment where he realized everything he'd done wrong, and that leads to some real changes in his character going forward.
 
So did they not do the thing where Rick convinced Negan that his way is the right way before slashing his throat? Because I always liked that in the comics. Negan had that, "Oh shit" moment where he realized everything he'd done wrong, and that leads to some real changes in his character going forward.

Eh, yeah, they basically did it. Rick told him what Carl wanted, Negan didn't accept it at first then paused his advance, cue dramatic music and close up as Negan's face contorts into...something like remorse? Empathy? I don't really know, he looked like he was about to cry. :chuckle: Then the throat slash.

Coulda been done with way more impact in my opinion but it was okay.
 
Eh, yeah, they basically did it. Rick told him what Carl wanted, Negan didn't accept it at first then paused his advance, cue dramatic music and close up as Negan's face contorts into...something like remorse? Empathy? I don't really know, he looked like he was about to cry. :chuckle: Then the throat slash.

Coulda been done with way more impact in my opinion but it was okay.

The facial contortion could have been anything -- I took it as rage. They clearly didn't add even the beginning of a potential statement of remorse, nothing like "But all I ever wanted to do was help people", etc...

I'm glad they didn't. I don't see any plausible way a guy like Negan -- at least as portrayed on the TV show -- doesn't really understand the full moral impact of his behaviors. "I didn't realize that murdering people who wouldn't give me half their shit was wrong". "I didn't realize that pressuring women to have sex with me by threatening their husbands/boyfriends was wrong."

Frankly, excusing/believing that kind of "remorse" would be akin to those nutty women who fall in love with serial killers. "I know there is really something good inside him" kind of crap.
 
The facial contortion could have been anything -- I took it as rage. They clearly didn't add even the beginning of a potential statement of remorse, nothing like "But all I ever wanted to do was help people", etc...

I'm glad they didn't. I don't see any plausible way a guy like Negan -- at least as portrayed on the TV show -- doesn't really understand the full moral impact of his behaviors. "I didn't realize that murdering people who wouldn't give me half their shit was wrong". "I didn't realize that pressuring women to have sex with me by threatening their husbands/boyfriends was wrong."

Frankly, excusing/believing that kind of "remorse" would be akin to those nutty women who fall in love with serial killers. "I know there is really something good inside him" kind of crap.

Again, I don't have full knowledge of anything that is gonna happen in the future, but I don't think a redemption arc or characters "forgiving" Negan or whatever you keep talking about, is in the cards. Jack can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the comics, Negan does accept Rick's way before he slashes his throat- but it isn't shown in some long monologue about he was wrong all along or some shit. It's a very brief moment of clarity, if I recall correctly. Just as it was meant to be here, or we can only assume at this point.

That said, absolutely didn't take that scene as "rage" whatsoever, like never even crossed my mind. Why he would stop counting down, stop advancing on Rick, stay his assault and give way to a dramatic pause and music...because of...rage? I don't know. As always on this topic, I don't agree, but zero interest in arguing it. @Jack Brickman watch it on YouTube and decide for yourself.
 
Again, I don't have full knowledge of anything that is gonna happen in the future, but I don't think a redemption arc or characters "forgiving" Negan or whatever you keep talking about, is in the cards.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this specific statement:

Negan had that, "Oh shit" moment where he realized everything he'd done wrong....

I don't find it remotely plausible that the Negan portrayed on the show could plausibly have an "'oh shit' moment where he realized everything he'd done wrong." He already knew that what Simon had done to the men/boys from whom they took the Sanctuary was wrong. He knew that Simon killing all the people in the Heaps was wrong. He even had enough moral awareness to not want to kill Rick in front of his son. Given those demonstrated incidents of moral awareness, he cannot plausibly have been unaware of the moral implications of all the other shitty things he did.

Negan was not in favor of gratuitous violence. But he had zero moral qualms about engaging in whatever degree of abuse/violence was required to maintain his exalted position and privileges. At least, that's how I see the guy. Which is why I see some revelation that "gee, I suppose threatening/abusing men to intimidate their wives/girlfriends into having sex with me" was wrong, as not credible. The writers are free to do that, of course. But that doesn't make it a credible turn for the character.
 
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this specific statement:



I don't find it remotely plausible that the Negan portrayed on the show could plausibly have an "'oh shit' moment where he realized everything he'd done wrong." He already knew that what Simon had done to the men/boys from whom they took the Sanctuary was wrong. He knew that Simon killing all the people in the Heaps was wrong. He even had enough moral awareness to not want to kill Rick in front of his son. Given those demonstrated incidents of moral awareness, he cannot plausibly have been unaware of the moral implications of all the other shitty things he did.

Negan was not in favor of gratuitous violence. But he had zero moral qualms about engaging in whatever degree of abuse/violence was required to maintain his exalted position and privileges. At least, that's how I see the guy. Which is why I see some revelation that "gee, I suppose threatening/abusing men to intimidate their wives/girlfriends into having sex with me" was wrong, as not credible. The writers are free to do that, of course. But that doesn't make it a credible turn for the character.

Ah, thought you were saying that wasn't what happened.
 
Ah, thought you were saying that wasn't what happened.

No. Ugh.

Jack was saying that's what happened in the comics, and he asked if it happened on the show. My point was that given how Negan was portrayed on the show, I don't think such a turn would be credible.

He'd be like the guy who spends his life beating up old ladies and taking their shit, and then waking up one day and saying "gee, I never realized that was wrong." At least, that's how I see it. He knew it was wrong -- he just didn't care.
 
No. Ugh.

Jack was saying that's what happened in the comics, and he asked if it happened on the show. My point was that given how Negan was portrayed on the show, I don't think such a turn would be credible.

He'd be like the guy who spends his life beating up old ladies and taking their shit, and then waking up one day and saying "gee, I never realized that was wrong." At least, that's how I see it. He knew it was wrong -- he just didn't care.

When you said his facial expression seemed one of rage, I took it as you meant that wasn't meant to be the same moment of clarity from the comics. I'm sure you can understand how this was kind of misleading.
 
When you said his facial expression seemed one of rage, I took it as you meant that wasn't meant to be the same moment of clarity from the comics. I'm sure you can understand how this was kind of misleading.

Okay fine. From what Jack said, Negan actually stated in the comics that he was wrong, and that Rick was right. That didn't happen on the show -- all we got from Negan was an ambiguous facial expression with no verbal acknowledgement that he had been "wrong".

Certainly, there wasn't any clear indication to viewers that Negan was admitting fault/errors. Especially since he had just gotten done telling Rick he was going to die, and given that the little speech Rick had given was essentially the exact same one Negan had heard from him multiple times before, to no effect.

"We can work together, we can make this work", etc..
 
Okay fine. From what Jack said, Negan actually stated in the comics that he was wrong, and that Rick was right. That didn't happen on the show -- all we got from Negan was an ambiguous facial expression with no verbal acknowledgement that he had been "wrong".

Certainly, there wasn't any clear indication to viewers that Negan was admitting fault/errors. Especially since he had just gotten done telling Rick he was going to die, and given that the little speech Rick had given was essentially the exact same one Negan had heard from him multiple times before, to no effect.

"We can work together, we can make this work", etc..

I don't know, I'd have to go back and read that part again. Maybe find a picture of that page on Google or something. EDIT: Yeah, in the comic he does have full fledged dialogue in that moment, although it comes off pretty cheesy. Just looked it up. Would have translated horribly to the screen so I'll retract my complaint about the moment being too brief with no dialogue from Negan. :chuckle:

That was why I said I didn't find the scene fully effective, I assumed they were going for the same thing as the comics- that Negan had a moment, or whatever you want to call it. Yet it was so brief, and he doesn't say anything, that I was just like, "Okay." I still took it to mean the same thing from the comic, but okay, who knows, it could mean anything. *shrug*
 
For the record if you don't buy it in the show you wouldn't buy it in the comic either. Negan is just as much of a prick in the comics as far as I know. All the bad things he does, he does in the comics. I think for him to do a complete 180 heel turn at the last moment like that is kind of silly, it'd be nice if they added some sort of reason why Negan would NOW be reconsidering everything it'd make more sense. Or maybe I'm just missing something. So in fact, the way the show did it may actually be better.
 
Here's the comic scene:

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Yeah, nothing remotely like that in the show.

I will say that on the show, the idea of bartering was something Rick had raised specifically, and Negan had mocked him for it.
 
Yeah, nothing remotely like that in the show.

I will say that on the show, the idea of bartering was something Rick had raised specifically, and Negan had mocked him for it.

A shame. Negan's arc in the comics has been one of the best aspects of that version of the story.
 

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