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United States Foreign Policy And International Affairs

Discussion in 'RCF Politics' started by jking948, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    60 million people died in World War II. That war was largely a direct consequence of the rise of the Nazis and Fascists. The war was followed by 40+ years of the Cold War and the constant threat of the entire continent becoming a nuclear wasteland.

    So given the reasons they have, I wouldn't say their decision to ban Nazis and hate speech is "ridiculous." That's a very American attitude, and I understand where you're coming from; but you should, in turn, try to understand their motivations.

    Let's be clear, Southern, Generation Identity, Defend Europe; these people aren't doing what they're doing to be "edgy" or for "shock value," they're avid racists who truly believe in their cause.

    Dismissing these kinds of right-wing fascist lunatics rather than taking them seriously is part of the problem.
     
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  2. MediumBaller

    MediumBaller All-Star

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    I just think hate speech laws in general are ridiculous. I don't believe people should be punished or imprisoned for the things they say (other than in extreme circumstances). It stifles discourse, imo, and I wouldn't want the US to ever adopt such laws. But, like you said, given their history I can understand why they've implemented them.

    I'm not familiar with Generation Identify or Defend Europe, but after doing some more research on Southern I'd agree that the things she's doing go beyond "being edgy". Her stunt trying to get into the UK seems edgy and pointless to me, but the Mediterranean boat incident I just read about goes beyond that.
     
  3. AZ_

    AZ_ Hall-of-Famer

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    McMaster is expected to be gone within the next few days.

    Maggie Haberman reporting that Tillerson expressed concerns about working with John Bolton.
     
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  4. Adam

    Adam Reading and reacting

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    So I can chime on this, my wife works with the labour party and has heard some details that might explain a few things.

    Just to explain free speech in the UK, basically we have free speech but we also have a responsibility for the words we say and the actions they cause. this is the same for all EU countries. So for example i can say a racist sentiment and that might be ok in conversation. but if i am inciting racism, say handing out flyers, or encouraging chants (eg monkey noises at a football match) then i can face a sanction for that. I

    If you are a non EU national on a government watch list because you tried to prevent aide getting to refugees and you specifically aim to hand out racist flyers etc.. then you have no legal right to enter the country and they are under no obligation to help you.

    The UK is trying its best to fight our natural xenophobic nature with its legislation (just look at the stupid public opinions through brexit and you'll realise how much we have to work against on a day to day basis) so generally the home office is tight on things like this.
     
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  5. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    FWIW, I'm not sure how much discourse can be had with a racist or a Nazi but again I wouldn't support such laws here in the US either; and it's also important to point out we're not talking about the US, we're talking about Europe. If Germany wants to ban Nazi-like hate speech, that seems to make more sense than the alternative.

    Yep...
     
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  6. Huber.

    Huber. Adrninistrator

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    I've noticed they every one on your Nazi list that has been discussed on this site has one point in time either denounced or distanced themselves from white supremacy. What gives?
     
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  7. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    Are you saying one of these folks isn't a White Nationalist or doesn't associate with White Nationalists? I've already explained their associations in this thread; so, is there some concrete disagreement you have with the facts stated - or just the person stating them - or??

    FWIW, if you're being serious, there is a financial and political incentive for many to walk the line between outright bigotry and racism, and more coded language. That barrier breaks down when you consort with White Nationalists and White Nationalist groups, wear their branding, align yourself with their protests and rallies; etc.

    Most of these people want to avoid this from happening:


    Now is there something you actually took issue with .. are you suggesting these people aren't White Nationalists .. or what?
     
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  8. Huber.

    Huber. Adrninistrator

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    I just doubt your accuracy of white nationalism labeling is all. I highly doubt 100% of these people we have talked about in the last two years are. Maybe it's because i have more faith in humanity than most people
     
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  9. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    Right, so it didn't have anything to do with the facts, facts that are readily available to you, and facts that are not in dispute .. but absurdly .. who was presenting those facts to you.

    That's a shame... but not remotely surprising.

    Nonetheless, your faith in me (as if relevant) or vice versa isn't really a worthwhile topic of conversation.
     
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  10. Cavatt

    Cavatt Hall-of-Famer

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    I get this when people are talking about Mitt Romney being portrayed as a racist in 2012. I have no reason to think he is a racist. He hasn't done anything. I think most of that was from the fact that Mormonism has some pretty racist teachings in the Book of Mormon. But Lauren Southern?

    The strange thing to me is that when we talk about all the far left stuff, no one can even name anyone other than Bernie and Elizabeth Warren, but these people are known for the extremely messed up views and racist things they have said and done.
     
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  11. TyGuy

    TyGuy Chinese

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    They are in dispute. When someone distances themselves from the alt-right and white nationalism that means they aren't a member of the alt-right and they aren't white nationalists.

    Once again, seemingly everybody to the right of Mao is a white nationalist, alt-right, fascists ect. Which is funny to me because the National Socialist Workers Party, Fascism, ect are authoritarian, and have way more in common with the modern left. Find anybody that is conservative or Libertarian that is authoritarian; they don't exist to my knowledge.

    I thought we wanted to change how things operate with these new forums? It's still the same nasty labels being applied in mass instead of looking at people as individuals, and analyzing their separate beliefs. I guess it's just easier to put someone in a group.

    I'm out.
     
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  12. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    What's more strange is this tacit willingness to cover for these people... Like what is the incentive for trying to play apologist for someone like Sellner and his girlfriend who openly talk about "Pakis taking over" and about the unresolved "Jewish question?"

    [​IMG]

    These guys are White Nationalists by every possible definition of the term. They are openly "ethno-nationalist" who advocate for a ethnically "White" Christian-dominated Europe. That is, by definition, "White Nationalism." They are both members of Defend Europe and Generation Identity, both White Nationalist outfits.

    Where is there any dispute here? Or .. is the dispute actually about whether or not this is even a bad thing? Because I truly hope that's not where we're at here.

    I'll just say that conservatives do themselves and their ideology a disservice by reflexively playing apologist for White Nationalists and racists like this. If you're not one of these people, then call them out for their hate -- and if you're too chicken-shit to call out would-be Nazis, then stand aside and get out of the way while the rest of us do it.
     
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  13. The Human Q-Tip

    The Human Q-Tip War is Hell

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    Oh, it would be extraordinarily easy to name a ton of people further to the left than Bernie or Warren. I read stuff all the time I consider wildly racist, extreme offensive, etc., from people on the left. And it is virtually never denounced by fellow-travelers on the left. Even have some of it bookmarked.

    Thing is, I don't see much value in terms of starting reasonable discussion by posting that stuff here to throw darts at the left. If I did post that stuff, I'm sure I could get a lot of high-fives from conservatives - or would if more than a handful posted here.

    I don't do it because I don't see it serving a constructive purpose here.
     
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  14. Cavatt

    Cavatt Hall-of-Famer

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    People that you have to look up or that you know off the top of your head?

    This Lauren Southern has a big following and we all know her from when she was shooting flares at rescue boats in Italy and cried when Patreon didn't want to be associated with that.

    She said Richard Spencer isn't a racist because he just wants a white ethnostate, he doesn't think Whites are better.

    Is that something that conservatives agree on? Wanting an all white country isn't racist?
     
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  15. gourimoko

    gourimoko Fighting the good fight!

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    By who? Where? Are you disputing the claim?

    Ty, is Richard Spencer a racist and a White Nationalist? How many times has Richard Spencer said "I'm not a racist?" He's said numerous times that "I don't dislike Black people," and that he's not a racist, nor a White Supremacist.

    So by your logic, we should take him at his word? Is that right?

    And from that point, I'll ask you, where is the ideological difference with respect to race and "identitarianism" between Richard Spencer and Martin Sellner?

    Because, if you didn't realize, Spencer refers to himself as an "identitarian" just like Sellner, just like Pettibone; so again, by your logic, these people are of the same mind when it comes to policies that affect the "White identity" are they not?

    Ty... Is Spencer a White Nationalist? Okay, is Sellner? What about Pettibone's podcast Virtue of the West where she co-hosted alongside Tara McCarthy? Was that not a White Nationalist podcast?

    And how are these people somehow descriptive of "everybody to the right of Mao?" Are you suggesting these far-right White Nationalists are somehow centrists? Do you think their ideas are reasonable? I'm just trying to understand how a far-right racist ethno-nationalist is somehow descriptive of the center politically or would describe "anyone to the right of Mao?"


    Yeah, this makes no sense.. Authoritarianism exists on both sides of the political spectrum. You were doing fine with communist references, which is sufficiently authoritarian.

    And FWIW, highlighting "socialist workers party" in the Nazi name doesn't really say anything about your argument; just .. research the topic for yourself.. but the Nazis were not 'socialists,' they were fascists and implemented nothing close to a socialist government or socialist economy. The rich and corporatists were largely in power, and the fascist Nazi regime was ideologically aligned with Italian fascists and against the Soviet communists.

    The Nazis crushed the German trade unionists and socialist, Marxist and communist elements and did absolutely nothing for the workers of these busted unions -- instead confiscating their wealth as national property to enrich the Nazi Party. The Nazis then replaced the collection of all unions with the GLF (German Labor Force) which was steeped in fascistic, nationalistic and jingoistic ideals largely borrowed from the Fascists in Italy.

    Sadly, I fear nothing of what I just said will actually mean anything to you, simply because I'm saying it... But you're ideas here about left-right political ideologies is just off-base, it doesn't make sense. Authoritarianism is vile, but exists on either side of the political landscape. But in saying that, we cannot erase the fact that Hitler and Mussolini were right-wing fascist dictators; nor can we erase the fact that Stalin and Mao were left-wing communist dictators.

    If by "conservative" you mean right-wing (I'm assuming you're not referring to the GOP, right?)...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    That we are...

    So ... the reality is that you would prefer if someone like Spencer or Sellner or Pettibone, et al, were not labeled "White Nationalists?" But instead, we should "analyze their beliefs?"

    Is that what you'd like? For us to spend time analyzing the merits of their beliefs, their open White Identitarian beliefs? I'm just trying to understand what you mean by this...

    Or is it that you feel the label does them a disservice because it silences them? It cuts off the conversation before they've had a chance to speak? "Poisoning the well" as it were?

    Again, where/how does the label not fit -- what beliefs are we missing from Sellner/Pettibone, and again, where is the light between these two and Richard Spencer?

    Should we take time out to debate "the Jewish Question," or the potential wonders of a White ethnically pure Europe and America? Or should we short-cut this bullshit by calling a racist a racist and being done with the conversation?

    Adios....
     
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