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2019 53-man roster news

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Right, but it appears you took him out of context in the first place is what we're saying.

It certainly seems, as Out of the Rafters said, that Soar was referring to Kirksey shouldn't being comfortable about keeping his spot after this upcoming season.

For like.. the third time now.. his statement was 'lack of depth keeps him around for now'. He didn't say anything about after the season, he literally used the words 'for now'. That's the context I was responding to. I have seen a lot of posters forget or not know that Kirksey has a contract that makes releasing him prohibitive, so seeing that comment inspired mine.

Maybe we can just move on now?
 
2) The Browns aren't too keen on giving Joe Schobert an extension. A few days ago we heard the rumors of Schobert's name coming up in trade talks. Then we drafted Takitaki and Wilson. Schobert is extremely solid but cap space is valuable and Schobert just isn't elite enough to justify a big contract. Minimally the Browns are preparing for his departure.

3) Kirksey shouldn't feel too comfortable either. There's nothing to dislike about Kirksey the person. Off the the field he's tremendous. His support of the city is great. But he's coming off an injury riddled season. And in the games he did play, he didn't look like the same guy. He's not Dorsey's guy either. The lack of depth we have likely keeps him around, for now.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we ended up keeping one of them.

The linebacking corps was thin as hell before the draft. We released starter Jamie Collins and backup Tanner Vallejo. We signed career backup Ray-Ray Armstrong to 1yr/$1.55M, and Adarius Taylor to 2yrs/$5M. They're both 28, and both look to be depth signings. Then there's "never played a down/repeatedly released"
Xavier Woodson-Luster. Other than those 3, we've got the three listed starters: Kirksey, Schobert, and Avery. And Avery may be more of a situational guy -- or maybe he does end up being the replacement for Collins

But if you subtract both Kirksey and Schobert...damn. That leaves us with perhaps a 1/2 starter in Avery. We drafted one guy in the third, and one in the fifth. If either one of those guys develops into a reliable starter, we'll be fortunate. But that's why you take two -- hopefully, one of them hits. The odds on both of them becoming starters within a year seems rather small to me. Anyway, my point is that when you look at all the moves we made in the offseason at linebacker, it could just as easily mean that we're going to look at Kirksey and Schobert, see if Kirksey is willingness to renegotiate and/or Schobert willing to sign for a reasonable deal, and keep one. The fact that Schobert and Kirksey have some positional flexibility may make it easier to fit one or the other in with whichever of our draftees shows the most promise.
 
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if we ended up keeping one of them.

The linebacking corps was thin as hell before the draft. We released starter Jamie Collins and backup Tanner Vallejo. We signed career backup Ray-Ray Armstrong to 1yr/$1.55M, and Adarius Taylor to 2yrs/$5M. They're both 28, and both look to be depth signings. Then there's "never played a down/repeatedly released"
Xavier Woodson-Luster. Other than those 3, we've got the three listed starters: Kirksey, Schobert, and Avery. And Avery may be more of a situational guy -- or maybe he does end up being the replacement for Collins

But if you subtract both Kirksey and Schobert...damn. That leaves us with perhaps a 1/2 starter in Avery. We drafted one guy in the third, and one in the fifth. If either one of those guys develops into a reliable starter, we'll be fortunate. But that's why you take two -- hopefully, one of them hits. The odds on both of them becoming starters within a year seems rather small to me. Anyway, my point is that when you look at all the moves we made in the offseason at linebacker, it could just as easily mean that we're going to look at Kirksey and Schobert, see if Kirksey is willingness to renegotiate and/or Schobert willing to sign for a reasonable deal, and keep one. The fact that Schobert and Kirksey have some positional flexibility may make it easier to fit one or the other in with whichever of our draftees shows the most promise.

You only need 2 starting linebackers. Nickel's the base defense.

Avery is probably one. I honestly think they're ok with mediocre players like Adarius Taylor being the second. With two new prospects coming in, that should be plenty.

But hey, if you completely strike out with your drafting and planning, then you dip into funds to cover up your mistake while you fix it.

LB is really not valued at all by our front office. Out of all the non-ST position groups, it's probably last behind RB/TE.
 
If this draft hammered home one thing for certain, it's that the Browns plan on playing Nickle a lot this season.

They have Ward, Williams, Mitchell, Carrie, Gaines, Randall, Burnett, Murray, Redwine that will all likely play a lot of snaps this year. And that doesn't even include Special Teamers or added depth that the team will likely have.

Not to mention that at most, the Browns have 3 or 4 playable linebackers at the moment, no reason to play any more than that. I'm much more worried about DT depth in the next few years than I am with linebackers. Backers are easy to find and their impact in the current game is not that great.
 
You only need 2 starting linebackers. Nickel's the base defense.

Avery is probably one. I honestly think they're ok with mediocre players like Adarius Taylor being the second. With two new prospects coming in, that should be plenty.

I suspect that Schobert and Kirksey are going to be the two linebackers in nickel this year barring injuries.

Avery is a better pass rusher than he is a true off ball LB at this point and time.

I'm betting on Avery being the "starting" SAM in the base 4-3 (about 25-30% of the snaps) and then sliding down as a sub package edge rusher in nickel. Either with Garrett kicking inside or Avery rotating in to keep Garrett and Vernon fresh.
 
I suspect that Schobert and Kirksey are going to be the two linebackers in nickel this year barring injuries.

Avery is a better pass rusher than he is a true off ball LB at this point and time.

I'm betting on Avery being the "starting" SAM in the base 4-3 (about 25-30% of the snaps) and then sliding down as a sub package edge rusher in nickel. Either with Garrett kicking inside or Avery rotating in to keep Garrett and Vernon fresh.

I mentioned Avery being one in the post-2019 scenario where we might let Joe and Kirksey walk.

I agree with your usage of Avery. I really like the race car third down look of Myles and Ogunjobi inside, Vernon and Avery outside.
 
Seems like this adds to the linebacker conversation

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/29/where-does-mack-wilson-fit-with-the-browns-defense/

It was pick 155 that Cleveland took Alabama LB Mack Wilson with. The pick addresses one of Cleveland’s few positions of need and it is one I personally think is the most desperate need at this point. Will the NFL wash him out in a few years or could he be a stalwart of the defense? Only time and his development will tell, but for now, let’s see where Wilson fits with Browns.

Wilson can play both in coverage and has the speed to go downhill. If it translates to the NFL level, Wilson could be a huge help as a possible starter in the future. The three projected starters for this year likely come down to Joe Schobert, Christian Kirksey, Adarious Taylor, and Genard Avery. He will be battling for spots in the rotation with fellow rookie Sione Takitaki and Ray Ray Armstrong. This also assumes that recently acquired DE Olivier Vernon will be sticking to the line and not dropping back a level.

What Wilson excels in is pass coverage. Last year, according to Pro Football Focus, he had the most targets of any SEC LB in this year’s draft and he had the fifth-lowest passer rating allowed. That is in a conference that isn’t necessarily known for its QB play though. In all likelihood, Wilson will not be cracking the starting lineup in year 1. We should definitely see him in the rotation though, especially on later downs. If the Browns can get pressure (and by all means they should), his job should be relatively easy.

Wilson’s ceiling is replacing Browns LB Christian Kirksey as a starter in a couple of years. His floor is rotational depth and that could suit the Browns well as the expectations for this upcoming season are only growing.
 
Seems like this adds to the linebacker conversation

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/29/where-does-mack-wilson-fit-with-the-browns-defense/

It was pick 155 that Cleveland took Alabama LB Mack Wilson with. The pick addresses one of Cleveland’s few positions of need and it is one I personally think is the most desperate need at this point. Will the NFL wash him out in a few years or could he be a stalwart of the defense? Only time and his development will tell, but for now, let’s see where Wilson fits with Browns.

Wilson can play both in coverage and has the speed to go downhill. If it translates to the NFL level, Wilson could be a huge help as a possible starter in the future. The three projected starters for this year likely come down to Joe Schobert, Christian Kirksey, Adarious Taylor, and Genard Avery. He will be battling for spots in the rotation with fellow rookie Sione Takitaki and Ray Ray Armstrong. This also assumes that recently acquired DE Olivier Vernon will be sticking to the line and not dropping back a level.

What Wilson excels in is pass coverage. Last year, according to Pro Football Focus, he had the most targets of any SEC LB in this year’s draft and he had the fifth-lowest passer rating allowed. That is in a conference that isn’t necessarily known for its QB play though. In all likelihood, Wilson will not be cracking the starting lineup in year 1. We should definitely see him in the rotation though, especially on later downs. If the Browns can get pressure (and by all means they should), his job should be relatively easy.

Wilson’s ceiling is replacing Browns LB Christian Kirksey as a starter in a couple of years. His floor is rotational depth and that could suit the Browns well as the expectations for this upcoming season are only growing.
I also wonder if Kirksey is more valuable to the Browns than other teams?

If Kirksey has a good year - something I think is likely - then he will most like be getting $5-$7 million next offseason. The question is if the Browns find that $5-$7 million worth it because of Kirksey's leadership?

If so, then Schobert is definitely gone. If not, though, then I think Browns probably re-sign Schobert. Drafting the two linebackers, however, provides the Browns with some minuscule ability to recover in case both Kirksey and Schobert leave.
 
I also wonder if Kirksey is more valuable to the Browns than other teams?

If Kirksey has a good year - something I think is likely - then he will most like be getting $5-$7 million next offseason. The question is if the Browns find that $5-$7 million worth it because of Kirksey's leadership?

If so, then Schobert is definitely gone. If not, though, then I think Browns probably re-sign Schobert. Drafting the two linebackers, however, provides the Browns with some minuscule ability to recover in case both Kirksey and Schobert leave.

Kirksey is signed for 9 mill for 20 and 21 2.4 and 1.2 in dead weight, he is gone unless he restructures, but even then, he is gone most likely, 14.4 saved over 2 years is too much to pass up with an often injured vet at a position you don't value.
 
Kirksey is signed for 9 mill for 20 and 21 2.4 and 1.2 in dead weight, he is gone unless he restructures, but even then, he is gone most likely, 14.4 saved over 2 years is too much to pass up with an often injured vet at a position you don't value.
Missed that - point retracted. Thanks!
 
I suspect that Schobert and Kirksey are going to be the two linebackers in nickel this year barring injuries.

Avery is a better pass rusher than he is a true off ball LB at this point and time.

I'm betting on Avery being the "starting" SAM in the base 4-3 (about 25-30% of the snaps) and then sliding down as a sub package edge rusher in nickel. Either with Garrett kicking inside or Avery rotating in to keep Garrett and Vernon fresh.

I agree. I don't see Avery as a potential replacement for either Schobert or Kirksey. That means we'd actually need two starting linebackers if we got rid of both of those guys, and right now, we don't know if anybody on the roster could competently fill either spot.
 
One thing I've always noticed about offseason talk is that people think there is too much depth before the season starts, but by one third of the way into the regular season there aren't enough starting quality players.

We live in a world where Tanner Vallejo played over 12% of the defensive snaps and James Burgess saw the field over 6% of the defensive snaps last season. They were both terrible. Defensive depth when injuries hit the Browns was a big problem last season.

Add in the fact Collins played more defensive snaps than any other defensive player besides Demarius Randall last year by a wide margin, and there seems to be plenty of reason to draft two rookie linebackers along with keeping Kirksey and Schobert this upcoming season.

What happens in 2020 is anyone's guess this far in advance.
 
What happens in 2020 is anyone's guess this far in advance.

Don't really agree. We drafted db heavy and lb heavy, both have high cost vets making around mill a year that can be cut to save money. Even if we aren't looking at 2020, I 100% assure you that our front office is. Just like you could circle Jamie Collins being a cap casualty this offseason, Kirksey and Carrie will be cut next offseason.
 
Don't really agree. We drafted db heavy and lb heavy, both have high cost vets making around mill a year that can be cut to save money. Even if we aren't looking at 2020, I 100% assure you that our front office is. Just like you could circle Jamie Collins being a cap casualty this offseason, Kirksey and Carrie will be cut next offseason.

Sometimes a contract is written to be easy to part with in a specific offseason. That was certainly the case with Collins, who saved the Browns 9 million by both being cut and not living up to his contract for two seasons in a row. While Kirksey and Carrie both have contracts that give the franchise wiggle room if they underperform, they can also prove they are worth that money. In the case of Schobert, he is ending a rookie contract and has gone to a Pro Bowl. His situation is certainly different than Kirksey.
 
Sometimes a contract is written to be easy to part with in a specific offseason. That was certainly the case with Collins, who saved the Browns 9 million by both being cut and not living up to his contract for two seasons in a row. While Kirksey and Carrie both have contracts that give the franchise wiggle room if they underperform, they can also prove they are worth that money. In the case of Schobert, he is ending a rookie contract and has gone to a Pro Bowl. His situation is certainly different than Kirksey.

carrie to me is 95% gone, the writing is one wall, he will most likely be the 4th best corner this year, not worthy of his contract.

Kirksey is 75% gone. 28, almost 10 mill, I just don't think he will be worth it, I like him allot, but I think he gone.

Shobert I would say is 60% gone. Best of the bunch and he hasn't re-signed yet, so he might come a bit more reasonable. But he is UFA and made a pro bowl, probably will get over paid and out of where the Browns want to pay him, but best chance of the 3 to still be on the team.

And atleast one of Robinson or Hubbard are gone, Robinson 1 year 7 mill, but will want decent money again to stay, Hubbard 2 years left at that point for 7 mill each, with another year of Desmond at under 1 mill plus then RFA, I am sure he is being groomed to take one of the spots.
 

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