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Week 4 (10/4): Browns (1-2) @ Chargers (1-2) [4:05 PM EST, CBS]

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Yeah, because that's what you should definitely expect from him over the course of the season.

He's more likely to throw for less than 150 yards (which he has done in 15 starts) than he is to throw for 300 (which he has done in 10).

I don't think I said anywhere that he was the issue today....my question has always been what is the point of playing a 36 year old journeymen QB if the end result is going to be very similar? I'm all for winning.......but when you're losing AND making short term decisions, I just don't get very excited about that.

Because the end result would be likely be losing your job if they go to a guy who gives them less chance of winning.

I'm not sure how you're still not understanding the concept from their perspective.

Maybe if it were close between the two, you'd have an argument.
 
Because the end result would be likely be losing your job if they go to a guy who gives them less chance of winning.

I'm not sure how you're still not understanding the concept from their perspective.

Maybe if it were close between the two, you'd have an argument.

This is why you need your FO and coaching staff on the same page. After a few more weeks of losing it would be smart for the FO to step in and tell Pett his job is safe but needs to play Johnny to either boost his trade value in the offseason or erase any doubt in the fans' mind that a new QB for the future is needed.
 
This is why you need your FO and coaching staff on the same page. After a few more weeks of losing it would be smart for the FO to step in and tell Pett his job is safe but needs to play Johnny to either boost his trade value in the offseason or erase any doubt in the fans' mind that a new QB for the future is needed.

I see no reason at all why those should be your only two options.

Let McCown play out the season if he continues playing like he has. Manziel's trade value isn't going to do anything by actually playing, given that he's been mostly a disaster. He may actually have better trade value not playing, with some team believing he can still be something.

Fuck the fans opinion, to be honest. They damn sure better not be making decisions based on what Big Bill from Westlake thinks when he calls in tomorrow.
 
The ongoing belief that nobody knows if Manziel can succeed if he doesn't get the chance remains mind-boggling. The guy has been given tons of chances, but he hasn't taken the job. It's just that simple.


Everyone involved with the franchise built a support system to make Manziel's development a priority. The OC was hired because of what he did with Carr. The quarterback coach is Manziel's personal offseason coach. McCown got paid because he was comfortable grooming his eventual replacement in the quarterback room. The weird conspiracy against Manziel in some fans minds is some serious tin foil hat rationalization.

Here's the rational explanation why Manziel doesn't start:

If Manziel isn't developing in practice or beating out the guy who was out of football for two years during his prime, Manziel isn't starting NFL quarterback material yet. It may take three years like it took Rogers, but that day isn't today.
 
Based on how he looked in the pre-season and his limited time in the regular season, I doubt he looks like crap in practice, especially against this awful defense. It likely has more to do with Pettine wanting to keep his job. He probably views being competitive as easier to sell.....hey "we're close!".

My preference in playing Manziel had nothing to do with how I thought McCown might play.....it had more to do with finding a potential resolution at that position. I don't see why you invest a 1st round pick in a guy and then opt to keep him on the bench in favor of an average journeyman QB. For a good NFL QB that can get you somewhere? Sure.....for McCown?....you just can't sell me on that. I have no idea if Manziel will even develop in to an average QB but I'd rather find that out than watch a guy who's going to get us nowhere guide us to a 4-12 record.

Browns now sit at 1-3 and have played just one team on the plus side of .500 (New York), who absolutely blasted them. Schedule only gets tougher from here on out. Team is going nowhere and yet we're going to keep carting out a guy who does nothing for us long term and only a little more in the short. I'm sure this is where all the people break out the "loser mentality" quotes. Have at it.
Listen, I agree with where you are coming from. And I don't think you have a "loser mentality." But, I do disagree with your eventual conclusion.

When I say "looks like crap in practice" I mean he looks definitively worse than McCown. This leads to your point: Pettine wants to keep his job. Pettine knows if he wins, he'll keep his job. Thus, Pettine must think that either Manziel does not give them a better chance to win or that Johnny gives them a greater chance to lose.

Also, let's be real. McCown has played really well so far. He has a 66% completion percentage, an average gain of over 7 yards per pass, 4 TDs, 1 interception, 9 sacks, and nearly a 99 QB rating. Is he lighting the world on fire? Hell no. But has he deserved to lose the job? Hell no. The reason we signed Josh McCown to a three year deal is because we think he'll mentor our future starter. Right now, that player is Johnny. The Browns are treating Johnny like a rookie, and hopefully they will see something that suggests he can be the future starter, but that does not seem likely. Ultimately, the goal of this year is to get McCown comfortable with the offense, win a few games, and draft the QB of the future next year.

I just hate when people say "we haven't seen Johnny so he should start." We have seen Johnny, he's played at McCown's level for one appearance. Every other time he's ranged between awful and mediocre. Also, let's call that one appearance what it was: a demonstration of improvement where he made two good passes the entire game. The coaches see him every day at practice and do not think he is better than "career backup" Josh McCown. If they did, Johnny would be starting.
 
This is why you need your FO and coaching staff on the same page. After a few more weeks of losing it would be smart for the FO to step in and tell Pett his job is safe but needs to play Johnny to either boost his trade value in the offseason or erase any doubt in the fans' mind that a new QB for the future is needed.

I don't think they necessarily have to cater to the fans who want to see him but I absolutely agree the FO and staff need to be on the same page. After a few more weeks of this, I would opt to start shuffling in young players and getting them some experience. I don't know if that is in week 8 or week 12 but at some point, you just have to commit to sucking enough to get a true QB prospect (if the season is already lost). In that scenario, my cart is not tied to Manziel, I'd also be in favor of getting Davis a few starts (if they view him as a potential stop gap guy as their 2016 #1 pick is groomed).

As for Pett, a coach should not be playing for his job in year two, after a 7-9 record. Most rational people looked at the 2015-16 schedule / QB situation and thought another 7-9 season would be a really strong result. I was guessing the Browns would be in the 6-10 range (+1-2 wins depending on the start) but I was also guessing the defense wasn't going to be completely terrible, which it is. Honestly, I don't love Pett but firing him after two years would be ridiculous to me....especially when you consider how much of a disaster the last coaching search was.
 
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It's obvious that the Browns two biggest needs are the two most important positions in football.

QB, Dominant Pass Rusher
 
The ongoing belief that nobody knows if Manziel can succeed if he doesn't get the chance remains mind-boggling. The guy has been given tons of chances, but he hasn't taken the job. It's just that simple.


Everyone involved with the franchise built a support system to make Manziel's development a priority. The OC was hired because of what he did with Carr. The quarterback coach is Manziel's personal offseason coach. McCown got paid because he was comfortable grooming his eventual replacement in the quarterback room. The weird conspiracy against Manziel in some fans minds is some serious tin foil hat rationalization.

Here's the rational explanation why Manziel doesn't start:

If Manziel isn't developing in practice or beating out the guy who was out of football for two years during his prime, Manziel isn't starting NFL quarterback material yet. It may take three years like it took Rogers, but that day isn't today.

This is pretty off base though, given that Pettine clearly wants Johnny to develop behind McCown for awhile. It's why there wasn't an open competition for the starting job and why he went back to McCown when he was healthy.

Pettine is just the old school kind of coach that wants the young guy to develop behind the vet for awhile. I'm sure if he was in Oakland he would have sat Carr firmly behind the the Texans old QB (whose name escapes me right now).

Which isn't to say that this is all on mean old coach Pettine. Johnny wasted a year of development and has to make that up and then some since we already knew he was going to take awhile to develop after coming from a playground offense.

Saying that it's all because Johnny can't beat out the guy who is playing pretty well right and would always be the preferred option of our HC is just as dumb as the people who want him on the field no matter what. You can't pick and choose your context of the situation.
 
This is pretty off base though, given that Pettine clearly wants Johnny to develop behind McCown for awhile. It's why there wasn't an open competition for the starting job and why he went back to McCown when he was healthy.

Pettine is just the old school kind of coach that wants the young guy to develop behind the vet for awhile. I'm sure if he was in Oakland he would have sat Carr firmly behind the the Texans old QB (whose name escapes me right now).

Which isn't to say that this is all on mean old coach Pettine. Johnny wasted a year of development and has to make that up and then some since we already knew he was going to take awhile to develop after coming from a playground offense.

Saying that it's all because Johnny can't beat out the guy who is playing pretty well right and would always be the preferred option of our HC is just as dumb as the people who want him on the field no matter what. You can't pick and choose your context of the situation.

The head coach with a losing record and an absolute psychopath for an owner isn't leaving the better option on the bench. It's sad so many fans have convinced themselves they know so much more than the people who work for an NFL team and are around the actual team 14 hours a day, because it does the franchise no favors.

As for grudge against benching Manziel last year... dude was on coccaine and missing meetings. I have no idea how that is still a reason to scapegoat Hoyer. Just sour grapes I guess. Texans fans turned on Hoyer after one road loss in the opener, now they have seen enough of Mallet to swallow their tongues. Hoyer is likely getting back on the field soon. The guy doesn't ooze potential which turns fans off, but he probably got yanked too early this year.
 
I don't think they necessarily have to cater to the fans who want to see him but I absolutely agree the FO and staff need to be on the same page. After a few more weeks of this, I would opt to start shuffling in young players and getting them some experience. I don't know if that is in week 8 or week 12 but at some point, you just have to commit to sucking enough to get a true QB prospect (if the season is already lost). In that scenario, my cart is not tied to Manziel, I'd also be in favor of getting Davis a few starts (if they view him as a potential stop gap guy as their 2016 #1 pick is groomed).

As for Pett, a coach should not be playing for his job in year two, after a 7-9 record. Most rational people looked at the 2015-16 schedule / QB situation and thought another 7-9 season would be a really strong result. I was guessing the Browns would be in the 6-10 range (+1-2 wins depending on the start) but I was also guessing the defense wasn't going to be completely terrible, which it is. Honestly, I don't love Pett but firing him after two years would be ridiculous to me....especially when you consider how much of a disaster the last coaching search was.

I agree. While I think all of these games are just wasted opportunities to develop young guys like Davis or Manziel, I understand that the team is "playing" to win. I just hope that after they've had their fun playing in imaginary land that they switch priorities to trying to develop the young guys.

I also agree that Pett shouldn't have to worry about his job this year, but Farmer didn't pick him and might have thought that he should have gotten more out of a weak schedule last year. However, Farmer should know that the roster isn't really there yet either and that's his responsibility. Which leaves me thinking that I shouldn't be surprised if both get shit canned after the year. Although Farmer might be safe if he really did take the hit for Jimmy with the texting scandal.
 
I'll never fault a coach for not "playing the guys just to see what they have."

What kind of organization does that type of shit? Losing ones.

And no, the Browns may not win many games this season.

But building an organization that puts no emphasis on EARNING starting roles is not going to develop into a winner anytime soon.
 
The head coach with a losing record and an absolute psychopath for an owner isn't leaving the better option on the bench. It's sad so many fans have convinced themselves they know so much more than the people who work for an NFL team and are around the actual team 14 hours a day, because it does the franchise no favors.

As for grudge against benching Manziel last year... dude was on coccaine and missing meetings. I have no idea how that is still a reason to scapegoat Hoyer. Just sour grapes I guess. Texans fans turned on Hoyer after one road loss in the opener, now they have seen enough of Mallet to swallow their tongues. Hoyer is likely getting back on the field soon. The guy doesn't ooze potential which turns fans off, but he probably got yanked too early this year.

That's why I was talking about the HC and FO being on the same page. Obviously everyone should be focused on winning in the early part of the season, and I agree with Pet's call right now that McCown is the more polished QB. That being said, if we roll into the bye week 2-8 or 3-7, I think it would be prudent at that point to switch to Johnny or Davis (whoever of the two we care more about developing) and not spend the last 6 weeks hoping for a miracle run to the playoffs. If they were on the same page, Pet would feel comfortable making that switch without worrying that it might jeopardize his job.

As for the second part. I can only assume you thought I was jabbing you with the "former Texans QB (whose name I can't remember)." I was talking about Matt Schaub, who the Raiders traded for as the guy to bridge to Carr but then decided to just roll with Carr for the year as the best way to develop him for the future, which seems to be paying off. I agree with you that they couldn't have done that with Johnny last year because he was an entitled, immature, drunk, cokehead. IMO, it was quite scary though that Hoyer was playing so poorly that turning to Johnny became an appealing idea in the midst of a drive to the playoffs (although I would argue that Manziel failing in spectacular fashion made him realize that he needed to change his ways). As for Hoyer's present, he's in the mix to pick up for my fantasy team, mainly because Mallet was my third QB and is probably not going to be playing for a few weeks. :chuckle:
 
I can only assume you thought I was jabbing you with the "former Texans QB (whose name I can't remember)." I was talking about Matt Schaub, who the Raiders traded for as the guy to bridge to Carr but then decided to just roll with Carr for the year as the best way to develop him for the future, which seems to be paying off.

It's become pretty standard for any discussion I enter to devolve into a Hoyer discussion lately, so I thought that was your direction here... thanks for not going there. I do think we should look at what Oakland has done with Carr, because it has been working.

Carr was forced to dink and dunk his first season, and averaged less yards per attempt than anyone else in the NFL, drops factored in. What he was able to learn is to get the ball out quick, and don't rely on desperation heaves when the first or second option isn't open. He also did it with some limited options at the time.

What I saw last week against the Browns was a decisive QB with quick feet. Sure he went down for a few sacks, but he also delivered a good ball to a pair of threats on the outside: Cooper and Crabtree. Cooper looks like a future Pro Bowler and Crabtree seems like an ideal #2 receiver after being miscast as a #1 his whole career. Add a running back who can break tackles and you have a situation that makes a young QB successful.

I'm willing to give Manziel time, he just shouldn't be forced on the field when McCown isn't the reason the Browns are losing. The Oakland game cemented in my mind the difference between a young QB with weapons and throwing a young QB to the wolves.
 
When are we just going to say fuck it and lose every game? That's been the problem we've had and can't overcome. We lose out on better players because of meaningless wins, but hey even if we had the best pick, they'll still fuck it up. Julio Jones is a happy man.

Yup. Agreed 100%. Never bad enough.
 

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