DISCLAIMER:
This thread is extremely long. Read at your own risk.
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Well, not that I would know
that much better, but I am a history-buff.
But I know being the GOAT comes with territory, but I have 8 different reasons for such a lofty prize of being the greatest:
Reasons for Being the GOAT:
- A Winner, maybe of dynasties
- A Leader, a peace-maker/motivator
- A Talented Genius
- A Long-Lasting Player, many years of success
- A Difference Maker, in games, in impact
- The Ultimate Competitor, win at all costs
- Adversity Responder, responding to criticism
- Impact on Team
Reason #1: Being a Winner
Going by the list, winning 1 championship is one thing, but showing that they can either repeat or continue getting close every year as long as they can win it again in the future. Naturally, going by players who were amazing winners:
- Winning Centers: George Mikan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain*, Willis Reed*, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Robert Parish, Hakeem Olajuwon*, Shaquille O'Neal
- Winning Forwards: James Worthy, Dennis Rodman, Tim Duncan, John Havlicek, Julius Erving*, Larry Bird, Scottie Pippen, Pau Gasol*, Chris Bosh*, LeBron James
- Winning Guards: Bob Cousy, Walt Frazier, Rick Barry*, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Tony Parker, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade
The players with asterisks (*) had a very short window of winning. Otherwise, most of these guys have won 3+ championships in a timeframe.
Reason #2: Being a Leader
On the other hand, leading a team naturally means you could be counted on not only making the plays but getting others to play the way you need them too.
- Bill Russell - As the player with most championships ever, he led by example (an instance where he demanded to inbound the ball at the end of a close game 7), and coached the team while playing the game (literally).
- Willis Reed* - While playing a very limited career due to injuries, he set the tempo in a classic game 7 to energize the team the rest of the way without his presence. But it's still one instance...
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Someone who was the main option on contenders in two different decades. He probably is more of a leader in his experiences rather than motivational.
- Larry Bird/Magic Johnson - While the ultimate rivals throughout the 80s, I couldn't really separate them. Either of them played in EVERY NBA Finals series in that decade. Larry's charisma (and leading by example) set the tone early on. Magic becoming the main scoring option over Kareem later on gets him to this point too.
- Michael Jordan - Who didn't see this coming? He's a different type of leader: Being the "Ultimate Competitor". He once was killing a scrimmage team while a rookie in Bulls camp. The coach switched him over to the losing team, and he still beat the crap out of the other team. He made it a point to get on teammates if they weren't doing their job. He would master skills on both offense and defense because of that competitive streak.
- Tim Duncan - Another guy who led by example. While Shaq and Kobe were more dominant in certain periods during the 2000s, Tim toiled away at what he does best: Being Mr. Fundamental. There was a sense of calmness from Duncan that was lacking in the intense back of forth banter between Shaq/Kobe.
- LeBron James - He wasn't always a good leader, but he is trying to win by example and by speech. But there's still room for improvement.
Reason #3: Being a Talented-Genius
One cannot forget talent. Some guys could never win with talent alone, but add the other categories and it's easy to see who's most deserving.
- Wilt Chamberlain - Not a great winner, but learned to play almost every type of position you could play in basketball. The reason for this was the talent he had (speed, strength, stamina, reflexes, size); his skills also made the talents he had stand out; the only player who interrupted a long dynasty with his own championship.
- Oscar Robertson - As a 6 foot 5 point guard, he did everything on the court. A triple threat triple-double machine.
- Elgin Baylor/Jerry West - Talented scorers despite their size.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Probably one of the few guys who could hold his own against ANY center from history. He literally was able to beat Wilt Chamberlain, who had aged significantly, and beat Hakeem Olajuwon, who was still a young upstart. The ability he had, combined with his incredible skill-set (like the unblock-able sky hook) made him the top dog for most of his long career.
- Julius Erving - A legendary leaper who knew how to play the game. Before injuries hit him hard, he dominated the ABA and could've done more damage in the NBA, if only he kept healthy.
- Magic Johnson/Larry Bird - Back to these ultimate rivals. Magic was an oversized point guard, yet could run the floor and create MANY opportunities with his court vision. Larry could play 2 positions at all-star level and one of the better shooters in his time.
- Michael Jordan - As a shooting guard, he had a lot of different skill-sets. His talent is the golden standard, as a high leaper and super athletic player (a dynamite scorer and persistent defender). If you combined the skills he gained after his first retirement, there was no way he could be taken out easily.
- Kevin Garnett/Kobe Bryant - The first string of high-school-to-pros players to appear in the NBA. But it took them a few years to develop their talent and skill (into the 2000s).
- Tim Duncan - He must've had talent as the best player on the best team. But it was all fundamental. Did everything well to some point.
- LeBron James - The size of a Julius Erving/Larry Bird-type. The vision of a Magic Johnson-type. The strength of a Karl Malone-type. The explosive leaping and athletic prowess of a Michael Jordan-type. And much more added on later into his career, both skills and ability.
Reason #4: Being a Long-Lasting Player
Player's longevity at the top is also important. Some guys can never stay healthy, so they spend most of their careers never amounting to anything.
- Bill Russell - 11 Championships in 13 years
- Wilt Chamberlain - 2 Championships/6 NBA Finals appearances
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 10 NBA Finals appearances (2 appearances in the early 70s, 8 appearances throughout the 80s); 6 Championships
- Robert Parish - 6 NBA Finals appearances (80s + 1997)
- Larry Bird/Magic Johnson - 11 appearances in the NBA Finals (1980-1989; 1991); 8 Championships
- Michael Jordan/Scottie Pippen - 6 Championships (2 three-peats) in the 90s
- Tim Duncan - Championships in 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014 (only loss in 2013)
- Shaquille O'Neal - 6 NBA Finals Appearances (1995; 2000-2002; 2004; 2006)
- Kobe Bryant - 7 NBA Finals Appearances (2000-2002; 2004; 2008-2010)
- LeBron James - 7 NBA Finals Appearances
Reason #5: Being a Difference Maker
And then there's a difference maker on the court. It's not like you win championships if you don't make game-changing plays that shift momentum.
- The 1960 Celtics teams' top players (like Bill Russell) - What else is there to say? They always managed to close out team after team after team. Bill was always in the center of it. Who doesn't remember hearing (anywhere) about "Havlicek [stealing] the ball"?
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - He's had his run of moments, but no one should forget his legendary sky hook that tied the game in the 1974 NBA Finals.
- Magic Johnson - This time, without Larry sharing the role. The display Magic put on in game 6 of the 1980 Finals as the position-less player who started the game at center and guarded every position on the floor. One can't forget his Junior Sky Hook.
- Larry Bird - This time, with Magic sharing the role. Larry always shifted his team's momentum into the best direction. Hitting key shots, diving for the balls to create more possessions, etc. (go Youtube it or something, there's a lot of them)
- Michael Jordan - "Michael Jordan was God in Disguise" (Larry Bird). How do you respond to that in a tight playoff game? The Bulls lost that game, but not without Jordan willing it to double overtime. And what about "The Shot"? What about switching hands for a layup? The back-to-back-to-back threes? Passing to your point guard for the series-winning shot? Playing inspired basketball when you're sick? Playing as hard as possible to secure the 6th championship and putting your teammates on your back?
- Hakeem Olajuwon - It was a short run, but how can anyone forget his legendary dream shake?!
- Tim Duncan* - I'm sure he made a clear difference, but not like it was heavily noticed.
- Shaquille O'Neal/Kobe Bryant - They overwhelm their opponents with size/strength + skills/scoring.
- LeBron James - There's some recent moments. The "Chasedown Block". 2012 VS. The Celtics. 2013 VS. The Spurs.
Reason #6: Being the Ultimate Competitor
Being a competitor is also a way to be a GOAT (with all the other aforementioned details above).
- Bill Russell - An obvious choice, spending most of his career defending Wilt and taking him out.
- Wilt Chamberlain - While he never could beat Russell, he was someone with many gifts (size, strength, skills) and about to be usurped by the young Lew Alcindor. He wouldn't take that and let the young man have his place at the top yet.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - The only team that could end the 33-winning streak of Wilt's Lakers in 1972.
- Magic Johnson/Larry Bird - Magic got way more intense later in his career, but Larry ALWAYS had that edge. A Christmas game with Larry VS. Chuck Person symbolizes this: - Larry says he has a present for Chuck; shoots the shot in a deciding point of the game, makes it; tells Chuck a classic one liner: "Merry f#cking Christmas."
- Michael Jordan - He's always been a competitive asshole. Not making the varsity team his freshmen year in high school is the first type I hear of that competitiveness at a higher level. He gets in your face. And if you talk trash at him, you'll regret it deeply. And don't forget the Hall of Fame speech...
- Kobe Bryant - Cut in the same ilk as Jordan. Almost like a carbon copy.
- Tim Duncan - Played every game as hard as he could.
- LeBron James - I feel he has a way to go, but those championships in 2012-13 gets him closer.
Reason #7: Dealing with Adversity
This one's a little harder, but there are players who responded to doubts and put them in their place. Even with the media lacking in earlier decades, there was talk.
- Bill Russell (kinda feeling like he's on every list, doesn't he?) - After going for all those championships, his first year as player-coach was disappointing. People felt it was his fault (even though he had to deal with a less-selfish triple-double threat in the form of a 7'1" monster). So what does he do??? He wins 2 more years of championships. Even beating his old rival (now with LA) one final time.
- Wilt Chamberlain - Speaking of that certain rival, he finally figured out that passing and getting the team involved more could lead to more success. At least Alex Hannum got him to listen.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Magic Johnson - I put them together here since there wasn't that much talk of doubt. Kareem had already won early on. Magic did as well. They responded to adversity to make a decent run in the 80s. They showed it through their actions.
- Michael Jordan (gee, I wonder why he's here /sarcasm) - "Can't beat the Celtics or Pistons!" "Can't lead a team to win it all!" Okay, you all can shut up now, he just went to 3 NBA Finals, winning them all. "He finished playing baseball. Is he any good anymore?!" Oh look, he just scored 55 points on the New York Knicks a few games in. "Hey, you guys are old. You can't beat father time!" Alright, he just go out on top. And again, the Hall of Fame speech goes into all of that $#!T...
- Kobe Bryant - What happened to his team? He pulled a reverse-Jordan (Jordan's history went like this: losing, buying into a plan, winning it all) (Kobe's did this: winning early on, losing in his prime, finally buying in to win again). You can't win on your own, but you still need to be willing to take the steps necessary.
- LeBron James - Even with the super teams, he was the one who needed to change (if only a little) so they could finally win. 2011 proved that easily. And then he followed by example again VS. San Antonio. He might've lost the next two years of the NBA Finals, but was able to win once more.
Reason #8: Having an Impact on the Team
Finally, the impact a player has could make a team a whole different animal (good or bad).
- Bill Russell - Speaks for itself, since Boston was not a real contender until filling the holes left, which took some years of transactions.
- Wilt Chamberlain - The Warriors were lucky to have Nate Thurmond, but being replaced from the 76ers and Lakers wasn't as easy.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - The Bucks? The Lakers were more fortunate.
- Magic Johnson/Larry Bird - Again, they go together like peanut butter and jelly even though they're competitors. But it shows in their teams' efforts to replace them in the early 90s.
- Michael Jordan - After winning in '98, another semi-retire season. And with the terrible record, the Bulls have the 1st pick in 1999 to show for it.
- Tim Duncan - The first year in the league, they won 30+ more games than the previous year, a then-record. It is to be seen how the Spurs will look without the Big Fundamental.
- Shaquille O'Neal - Left LA, they needed to get back to the top, but lacking sufficient big men.
- LeBron James - He made us the best we ever were, but he "took his talents to South Beach". And to show for it, we had the worst drop off in the history of the league.
Looking at the list, these are the guys I would consider GOAT level:
- Bill Russell - 7/8
- Wilt Chamberlain - 6/8
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 8/8
- Tim Duncan - 7/8
- Larry Bird - 7/8
- Michael Jordan - 8/8
- Kobe Bryant - 6/8
- Magic Johnson - 8/8
- LeBron James - 8/8 (half-hearted since he can still improve...)
From what I see, Bill is nearly perfect, but even has a defensive enforcer, he didn't have the same talent as his rival. But he didn't need it, but as a team, the Celtics were the best in basketball.
On the other hand, Wilt's talent and prowess can only go so far without a talented group of teammates to play off of. I can't remember hearing anything about his leadership skills, either? I didn't find much for being a difference maker. It was minimal since he didn't win it all much.
Tim didn't have much adversity (because it was a good situation; it's probably more of a complaint that most of those Spurs teams that won were all boring). And since he wasn't a heavy stat-stuffer, I also didn't think of him as much as a difference-maker, but that one I'm not sure of.
Did Larry have any doubters? Probably a good thing, since he lived up to those expectations.
Kobe has never been seen from me as a "leader". I'm sure his teammates he's had over the years REALLY LOVE those death stares of his... And he's played with LA for so long, it hard to tell how they'll look this upcoming year.
That now leaves whom I consider the un-official players that could be considered the Greatest Of All Time:
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
- LeBron James
- Michael Jordan
- Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
While Russell had an edge in leadership and an incredible championship streak (which started up again after Wilt won his ring); while Chamberlain had an edge in talent and impact...
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Kareem had the best of both worlds. He could beat Wilt too, yet continued to challenge for ultimate victory early on before winning 5 championships in the 80s, STILL at a high level.
Magic Johnson
I find Magic's impact on the game to be a pleasure. He had a knack for running the floor and making it look pretty. The skills he had and the talent and size to take advantage every time down the floor. The only thing holding him back would be how his career was shortened so suddenly.
Michael Jordan
Most people find him the ultimate standard for a lot of reasons:
- A Super Scorer throughout his career; 30K total points
- Bringing in high-level effort to defend (Defensive Player or the Year)
- Improving skill-set from when he got older (fadeaway)
- Cold-Blooded Killer, ice in his veins, don't goad him
- Great physical gifts for his position
- Clutch - Buzzer beating shots combined with the pass
- The Bulls were STRONG; Jordan was mentally tough
- No matter the decade, winning 3 in a row has only happened 4 different times (Minneapolis: '52-'54; Boston: '59-'66; Chicago [twice]: '91-'93, '96-'98).
- Still was able to get players bought in. Dennis Rodman had a short leash, but Jordan held on for those 3 bumpy years.
- And despite missing over 130 games during his first retirement, he still had it. Scored 40 points despite being 40 years old. Got old, but still a great scorer
- Basically, he had everything he could ever want, including becoming the first billionaire athlete to some level? Every other GOAT was lacking somewhere.
- Bill lacked TRUE talent (imho), while Wilt lacked TRUE dominance (like in the playoffs)
- Being the true power forward on the list, Tim wasn't an eccentric personality on and off the court.
- Larry had a great career, but Jordan made more out of it. Even with those two retirements, Jordan could still kick @$$. But Larry became crippled (twice I think?). Just when the Bulls came out of their shell, the Celtics lost to father time and health.
- Kobe is almost a slightly worse generic carbon copy of Jordan. You'd think Kobe stole every skill in this case. He wasn't even the top dog on the first three championships.
- Magic had a great ride too, but also had his career cut short. But he still has less rings, wasn't even the best player for the first few runs, and less gaudy stats. And even if Magic was a triple double threat, Jordan was also capable of such a thing.
- Finally, Kareem had almost more success than MJ. But his career was spread thin from early 70s to late 80s. You're also comparing 1500+ games played to 1000+ games played. If Jordan had decided to play those missing years (more than 100-200 games worth), perhaps we'd be talking about Jordan as the all-time leader scorer...
LeBron James
The King has a long way to get to reach that perfection, but he's on the right track. He was similar parallels to Jordan:
- Great scorer
- Defensive player
- Great passer
- Mentally Tough
- Physical specimen
- Incredible health
- Getting players bought in
He needs a couple more seasons to get better stats to compare (30k points, 7-10k rebounds, 7-10k assists), needs some more rings...
We'll have to see, but right now... Jordan is the standard for GOAT.
