Why is Jordan the Goat?

[Return of the King]

Ok, so a couple of reasons why.

1. 6-0 in finals (I know it's not fair, but people take that into consideration and don't look at anything else apparently)
2. First Superstar to be marketed heavily during the internet boom.
3. Lack of the 24 hour news cycle that we currently have now (his negatives, on and off court, would've been enhanced mightily if he played in this day and age).
4. Records he has broken.

 

[Cassity14]

Ok, so a couple of reasons why.

1. 6-0 in finals (I know it's not fair, but people take that into consideration and don't look at anything else apparently)
2. First Superstar to be marketed heavily during the internet boom.
3. Lack of the 24 hour news cycle that we currently have now (his negatives, on and off court, would've been enhanced mightily if he played in this day and age).
4. Records he has broken.

Why isn't that fair? I think that's a really big deal.

 

[Return of the King]

Why isn't that fair? I think that's a really big deal.

Because this is the GOAT discussion, and to solely put it on a record whose variable is more to do with other players contributing than the said player, is not fair.
It should be used as a measure to compare 'Player A vs Player B,' but to only look at that, is a huge injustice towards other players.

 

[Cassity14]

Because this is the GOAT discussion, and to solely put it on a record whose variable is more to do with other players contributing than the said player, is not fair.
It should be used as a measure to compare 'Player A vs Player B,' but to only look at that, is a huge injustice towards other players.

That's fair, but I think basketball is also a sport where star players are given a ton more responsibility for team success, and Jordan's finals record, at least in my eyes, is another testament to his overall refusal to lose, especially when on the biggest stage and closest to the ultimate success.

The fact that he won finals MVP all 6 times backs that up as well, IMO.

 

[BigJ]

The thing is MJs Team was (heavy) Favourite in 5/6 or even all Finals... So he won when he was expected to won... He never really overcame a clearly better Team in the Finals..
He was on the 90s Superteam.. its safe to say if he had lost one or several Finals... now that would be shamefull

Lebrons Team was heavy underdog in all but 2 Finals(11 and 13).. He won 2 of his 3 Titles as an underdog. He is an odds beater.. a clear overachiever.

Also the whole Finals Records argument is flawed. It is useless without context.
Why is it viewed as worse to drag undermanned, "bad" Teams to the Finals because you are so Great that you elevate your Teammates... then to lose multiple Times early in the Playoffs?

Would MJs legacy be any less if he had dragged Chicago to some early Finals in the 80s and lost? Would he be really worse lets say 6/9 or 6/10 than 6/6?

Its also a pretty unfair standard.. No other true GOAT canidate i can think of besides MJ is flawless in the Finals. Kareem has lost in the Finals,Magic and Bird have..Duncan has..Kobe has..Shaq has..
Only MJ has.. now of course you can say "Well this is even more of a reason why he is GOAT".. thats fine.. but i say..
Look at what Teams he faced in the Finals and compare that to what lets say Legends in the 80s or in todays NBA have to face..

91- Lakers .. Still very good..but like really old.. and injured..
92-Blazers.. had Drexler... and then?
93-Suns ... Barkley,KJ.. pretty good but played no defense..
96-Sonics.. Payton and Kemp.. good but nothing special.
97 and 98 - Jazz ..Stockalone best Teams he faced but already past their prime..

Compare that to the Duels the Lakers and Magic had in the 80.. both Teams had 3 to 5 Hall Of Famers at all times! Sprinkle in some strong Sixers and Pistons and its tough.
And look at what Lebron faced..

07 - Spurs in their Prime .. Big 3 still kicking.. nuff said
11 - Mavs .. Still prime Dirk and propably the most underrated supporting cast ever.. Kidd and Marion are HOF Players(Kidd is a lock,Marion a maybe)
12 - OKC .. Big 4 was still there.. yet inexperienced
13 - Spurs .. infused with some youth.. looked better than ever.
14 - Spurs .. looked even better than the 13 Spurs.. amazing
15 and 16 GSW ... Superteam.67 and 73. nuff said.

Compare those lists and think of the Teams each player was on that year..
I'll give Lebron some beef for 2011 because had he played as he did the rounds before they propably would have won.. but lets not forget he was still young 25/26 and you also can say that 2011 changed him for the better. No more deferring in Big Moments.. i think then he fully embraced that he had to dominate to win Titles.

Its all a matter of perspective.. if you give him 07 and 11 as learning experiences.. and forget those as people forget that MJ could not get out of the first round for his first few years and could not get by Detroit....
Lebron would be 3/5 if we look at it from 2012 on.

 

[cavsfever]

Add to Lebron's record that he almost certainly would have won in 2015 had it not been for injuries to Love and Kyrie. He should have a 4-3 record really.

I dint think the 2007 or 2015 losses reflect on his abilities at all. He was practically playing one on five.

 

[Cassity14]

I never used the finals record against LeBron for a lot of the same reasons you outlined.

That doesn't diminish Jordan's.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I saw MJ's first game, was there at the Shot, and watched that whole era pretty closely. I considered him the GOAT, for all the reasons given previously, until the 2016 Finals.

MJ was the superior offensive player. But to me, LBJ's overall contribution in all facets of the game, including his ability to dominate and intimidate physically the other team, puts him over the top.

What he did in the 2016 Finals - leading both teams in all five statistical categories - is something MJ simply could not have done. And while it is just one series, it pretty much encapsulates what makes LBJ so special.

 

[PedroFlu]

To me the biggest difference between them is clutchness.

By that, I mean the ability to score the very last ball of a game.

Jordan was the best ever by a mile on that. LeBron - despite his historical clutch performances throughout games, when he was possibly facing more pressure than any other player ever faced - simply doesn't have a jumper good enough to make him the go-to definer of the very end of games.

In the Lakers 3peat era, Shaq was their best player, but Kobe was the last shot guy. Today, we all know LeBron is Cavs best player, but the last shot will go to Kyrie.

It's not because of choking or anything like that, but because of his characteristics - LeBron is a slasher, a driver and a playmaker, before a shooter.

Jumpshots are what close games are decided on, as officials are allergic to fouls on drives that take place in the last moments of a game.

So in the very last play,normally the best shooter shoots a jumpshot. That's how it has always been, I believe. I don't have many accounts of big guys like Shaq repeatedly making the last shot of games.

In Lakers 3peat era, Shaq was their best player, but the last shot went to Kobe.

In today Cavs, LeBron is the best player, but the last shot will go to Kyrie.

So, in the waning moments of a game, you may give the ball with LeBron- but not necessarily for the last shot, but to find someone for the last shot.

This is a big deal in basketball. We all have fun watching games go down to the last shot, and only a very few are go-to guys for these moments.

Actually, this is a very important trait of dominance. This is the utter dominance a player can exert on court. Jordan did it, and LeBron can't fully do it.

So this is basically what separates them to me.

Also, as great and accomplished as LeBron is, I have the impression he has showed to be much more flawed - and as consequence, more human - than Jordan. He had huge growing pains, and actually this goes to value his accomplishments, as no player had ever faced such big scrutiny.

It's like Jordan is god, infalible, and LeBron is the best among men.

But I'm sure this feeling is also media driven, as the idolatry Jordan reached was unparalalled.

 

[scopedog]

If you actually take a look at the amount of shots made/missed in the clutch during playoff games, LBJ is not only ahead of Kobe but he's not too far behind Jordan in both made shots and percentage.

So, uh... yeah.

Then we can consider the great passes he's made to others to close games. LBJ not being clutch and Jordan being some "god of clutch" is just a myth at this point and its extremely flimsy reasoning for putting Jordan ahead of LBJ.

As of now all I can really say is LBJ needs to lead us to another championship to tie Jordan's legacy. If he can go for a fifth then I'd even put him ahead.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

What Bron accomplished was way-harder. Bron is the GOAT.

 

[BigJ]

What Bron accomplished was way-harder. Bron is the GOAT.

That to me is the thing that will eventually make Lebron the GOAT in most peoples eyes.
If we can repeat against GSW ... He will be 2-0 against Superteams.. winning 2 Titles against them.
Thats something MJ didnt have to do.. because he was on the Superteam himself.

More and more people are realising that the 90s beside some Great Centers(of wich MJ faced NONE in the Finals!)where actually a pretty horrible Decade overall Talent wise.
The 90s where deluded by 2! Expansion Teams!
.
You have to look at context.. MJ won as a Favourite in a weak era
Lebron won and wins as mostly an underdog in a Strong Era.

I know who i rather have..

 

[cavsfever]

To me the biggest difference between them is clutchness.

By that, I mean the ability to score the very last ball of a game.

Jordan was the best ever by a mile on that. LeBron - despite his historical clutch performances throughout games, when he was possibly facing more pressure than any other player ever faced - simply doesn't have a jumper good enough to make him the go-to definer of the very end of games.

In the Lakers 3peat era, Shaq was their best player, but Kobe was the last shot guy. Today, we all know LeBron is Cavs best player, but the last shot will go to Kyrie.

It's not because of choking or anything like that, but because of his characteristics - LeBron is a slasher, a driver and a playmaker, before a shooter.

Jumpshots are what close games are decided on, as officials are allergic to fouls on drives that take place in the last moments of a game.

So in the very last play,normally the best shooter shoots a jumpshot. That's how it has always been, I believe. I don't have many accounts of big guys like Shaq repeatedly making the last shot of games.

In Lakers 3peat era, Shaq was their best player, but the last shot went to Kobe.

In today Cavs, LeBron is the best player, but the last shot will go to Kyrie.

So, in the waning moments of a game, you may give the ball with LeBron- but not necessarily for the last shot, but to find someone for the last shot.

This is a big deal in basketball. We all have fun watching games go down to the last shot, and only a very few are go-to guys for these moments.

Actually, this is a very important trait of dominance. This is the utter dominance a player can exert on court. Jordan did it, and LeBron can't fully do it.

So this is basically what separates them to me.

Also, as great and accomplished as LeBron is, I have the impression he has showed to be much more flawed - and as consequence, more human - than Jordan. He had huge growing pains, and actually this goes to value his accomplishments, as no player had ever faced such big scrutiny.

It's like Jordan is god, infalible, and LeBron is the best among men.

But I'm sure this feeling is also media driven, as the idolatry Jordan reached was unparalalled.

I liked this post since I think you make a good point re jump shooting and last shots. (It still hurts that Lebron didn't give that last shot to Kyrie at the end of Game 1 of the 2015 Finals...that might have won us the Finals since Kyrie doesn't crack his kneecap in overtime if that last shot goes in). But I think you're being too hard on Lebron. He finds a way to get it done at the end of games; as scopedog pointed out his clutch shooting percentages are pretty high compared to the other great players, certainly better than Kobe (Kobe's lifetime playoff three point percentage was 33.2% vs 32.1% for Lebron, not that big a difference, although Kobe had more of an advantage on long 2s).

But I do think peak Jordan was a better pure individual scorer than anybody who played the game, in the sense of give him the ball and tell him to score singlehandedly on this one possession and he's the best at it ever. (Relatedly, he got unreal respect from the refs that Lebron doesn't get). That's the most 'photogenic' aspect of the game but far from the only one.