• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Racial Tension in the U.S.

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Where should the thread go from here?

  • Racial Tension in the U.S.

    Votes: 16 51.6%
  • Extremist Views on the U.S.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Mending Years of Racial Stereotypes.

    Votes: 2 6.5%
  • Protest Culture.

    Votes: 1 3.2%
  • Racist Idiots in the News.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 32.3%

  • Total voters
    31
I think we are past the point where the truth of these incidents really matter.

There is no trust in major cities between the community and the police.

I processed claims for these Strip search practices and they were quite intrusive.

but this goes back to the drug War and the constitutional protections that were stripped away with this legislation and continual assault on our rihts as individuals.

Policing for Profit is a bad policy and it targets those with the least to give.



https://www.oig.justice.gov/reports/2013/g5013010.pdf

This was not a nice audit and it showed the police department misreporting and reallocating

now this audit focused on vehicles but the shared funds is a three million dollar business.

In 2015 The DOJ advised it was no longer accepting adoptions. Back in the 80's not many states had forfeiture laws so the Local and state police could adopt out seized items and monies so it wouldn't go back out on the street. since then all 50 states have adopted forfeiture and seizure laws so this is no longer necessary.

What we have thought is Police departments across the unites states that not only can offset cost of seizures and forfeitures but also profit from them.

[parsehtml]<style type="text/css">
table.tableizer-table {
font-size: 12px;
border: 1px solid #CCC;
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.tableizer-table td {
padding: 4px;
margin: 3px;
border: 1px solid #CCC;
}
.tableizer-table th {
background-color: #104E8B;
color: #FFF;
font-weight: bold;
}
</style>
<table class="tableizer-table">
<thead><tr class="tableizer-firstrow"><th>Value of Asset Forfeiture Recoveries by US Attorneys Year Asset Value Annual %Chg 1989 $285,000,039 -- 1990 451,870,952 +58.6% 1991 596,879,728 +32.1% 1992 325,786,450 -45.4% 1993 385,000,701 +18.2% 1994 418,224,247 +8.6% 1995 464,666,914 +11.1% 1996 377,527,900 -18.8% 1997 570,656,170 +51.2% 1998 280,808,572 -50.8% 1999 535,767,852 +90.8% 2000 312,676,413 -41.6% 2001(a) 199,043,103 -36.3% 2002 322,246,408 +61.9% 2003 342,862,000 +6.4% 2004 (b) 300,779,267 -12.3% 2005 313,866,115 +4.4% 2006 841,094,697 +168.0% 2007 1,323,094,697 +57.3% 2008 1,103,810,683 -16.6% 2009 1,129,381,466 +2.3% 2010 1,786,567,692 +58.2% TOTAL $12,667,612,066 +19.4% - See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture#sthash.tHHhKPa0.dpuf</th></tr>
</tbody></table>[/parsehtml]http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture#sthash.tHHhKPa0.dpbs



  • (Police Profit-Seeking) "In general, however, the powerful incentives for profit-seeking found within forfeiture current laws is criticized as encouraging inappropriate enforcement activities and detracting from the proper role of law enforcement within a democratic state. The dependency of the police on public resources for their operations is an important check on police power. Self-generating revenues by the police through forfeiture potentially threatens the ability of popularly elected officials to constrain police activities. Perhaps such concerns partially explain the differences in state laws. If the legislators and the public wished for forfeiture to be very easy and rewarding to law enforcement, every state would have low standards of proof, limited innocent owner protections, and all proceeds would go exclusively to the police."

    Source:
    Holcomb, Jefferson E.; Kovandzic, Tomislav V.; and Williams, Marian R., "Civil asset forfeiture, equitable sharing, and policing for profit in the United States," Journal of Criminal Justice (Amsterdam, The Netherlands: Elsevier, March 23, 2011) Volume 39, Issue 2, p. 283.
    http://walker-foundation.org/Files/walker/2011/AFjournalofcriminaljustic...

  • (Police Profiteering) "In sum, the present study found that law enforcement agencies in jurisdictions with more restrictive or less rewarding state forfeiture laws receive greater forfeiture proceeds through federal equitable sharing. These results provide compelling evidence that law enforcement agencies consider the legal burdens and financial rewards of their own state law compared to those under federal equitable sharing in determining how to process asset seizures. Whether such actions are viewed as appropriate, innovative, and utility-maximizing police behavior or something more problematic is a matter for the public and policy-makers to assess. Any discussion about these results, however, certainly raises political and normative questions about the independence of law enforcement from public oversight and the budgetary process as well as the appropriate role and limits of asset forfeiture by law enforcement."
- See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture#sthash.tHHhKPa0.dpuf


@gourimoko likes to refer to institutionalized racism. I often refer to it as classism. either way you get the same results.

Milwaukke generated 21 million from parking tickets.

46.5 percent of Milwaukee's revenue is state shared and is showing to be not sustainable. 20 % of their budget is based on local and property taxes.

so as they lose state shared income. Milwaukee has to find other ways to generate that revenue.


Milwaukee also has a 21% poverty rate


Milwaukee receive 19.9 percent of their income in licenses and municipal fines.


this was 4 years ago.

As local law enforcement becomes more empowered under state forfeiture laws and less oversight by the the DOJ( who really just wants to be done with the drug law,


The federal law in 2000 instituted a burden of proff. Many states since have enacted forfeiture laws without the burden

Wisconsin is one of them

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/20/asset-forfeiture-wisconsin-bail-confiscated_n_1522328.html

This lady lost 7 thousand dollars because the dog ( apparently having drug dogs at bail office is a thing) acted like there may have been drugs on the money.



once again this isn't going after the millionaire drug dealers living the high life. its being used to find excuses to confiscate anything they can and generate revenue.

Totally agree and everyone should be against this. It is unconditional in my opinion. The police should not be fundraising through the personal property of the populace. Has nothing to do with protecting and serving
 
I don't mean to single you out here, but I hear this all the time. "Black people are stirring things up. Complaining and being divisive.". I would argue that police shooting Tamir rice are the ones stirring things up. Blaming the victim for making the perpetrator look bad happens is a backwards way of thinking.

A lot of people are identifying with the perpetrators and I think they should reflect on that and ask themselves why.

You weren't singling me out, because I never said any of that.
 
I'm not sure what you're talking about but...

"but at least it was something fresh and new- seeing racism from the other side"

What??

I think I know what you were trying to say but I'll be damned that doesn't look horrible in text.

Yea just said it out loud and it comes off even worse.

My entire back and forth, until the end, was dripping with sarcastic tone. It's my fault, but that's just how I talk in real life when in casual conversation, and it spills over here, and is usually the reason @gourimoko and I get involved in back and forths until realizing at the very end we don't really disagree all that vehemently. So yes, I am owning up to the fact that that is indeed my own doing.

This statement was but one example. Yet you still understood what I was saying, regardless, so I won't apologize too much.
 
You weren't singling me out, because I never said any of that.

How you say something and what it sounds like matters. It is the closest thing we have to figuring out how you think.

I think it is very strange when Trayvon Martin is portrayed as a bad guy who had a screwdriver in his pocket. It's weird and it is people justifying why they are on the side of the guy who killed him. Tons of people in that thread defended George Zimmerman over pages and pages. Why?

Since then we have pretty definitively determined that Zimmerman is a loose cannon and is completely irresponsible with guns. He killed that kid when the kid was minding his own business. I just think everyone could propel this topic forward more honestly if they could reflect on why they chose the side they are on.

I am pro police, but I think their mission has been muddied and they don't know why they are there. I think they are as likely to escalate as to deescalate a violent situation. The fact that these situations are getting out of control just says that the police in these instances do not have control and that is frightening.
 
How you say something and what it sounds like matters. It is the closest thing we have to figuring out how you think.

I think it is very strange when Trayvon Martin is portrayed as a bad guy who had a screwdriver in his pocket. It's weird and it is people justifying why they are on the side of the guy who killed him. Tons of people in that thread defended George Zimmerman over pages and pages. Why?

Since then we have pretty definitively determined that Zimmerman is a loose cannon and is completely irresponsible with guns. He killed that kid when the kid was minding his own business. I just think everyone could propel this topic forward more honestly if they could reflect on why they chose the side they are on.

I am pro police, but I think their mission has been muddied and they don't know why they are there. I think they are as likely to escalate as to deescalate a violent situation. The fact that these situations are getting out of control just says that the police in these instances do not have control and that is frightening.

I don't recall ever commenting on the Martin case, in here or elsewhere. I could be wrong though. I do know Zimmerman is a scumbag regardless of what kind of person Martin was, so hopefully that gives you a window into figuring out how I think.
 
Should help calm the situation.

Odd that the riot comes after what appears to be a pretty clear-cut legitimate use of force. Your thoughts, @gourimoko?

Scott Walker Activates National Guard After Destructive Protests in Milwaukee

On Sunday, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker declared a state of emergency in Milwaukee County and activated the state’s National Guard in response to violent unrest that broke out in Milwaukee Saturday night following the fatal shooting of a black man by police, The Wall Street Journal reports.

“I join Milwaukee’s leaders and citizens in calling for continued peace and prayer,” said Walker in a statement. “It is also important for citizens to know that Wisconsin is the first state in the nation to have a law requiring an independent investigation anytime there is a shooting by a law enforcement officer that leads to a death.”

According to police, four officers were injured and multiple cars and businesses were set on fire after the death of 23-year-old Sylville Smith, leading to 17 arrests. At a press conference on Sunday, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett said that body cam footage demonstrated “without a question” that Smith had a gun in his hand when he was killed by police. From The Washington Post:

"Saturday night’s conflict began with a traffic stop about 3:30 p.m., police said. After being pulled over, two individuals fled from the car, prompting the officer — a black 24-year-old with six years of experience — to chase them, Police Chief Edward Flynn told reporters Sunday. Flynn said the stop was made for a suspicious vehicle that turned out to be a rental car.

Before shots were fired, he said, the entire interaction lasted between 20 and 25 seconds and covered just a few dozen feet. The 23-year-old suspect — identified by police Sunday as Sylville K. Smith — ended up running to a fenced yard where he turned toward the officer with a gun in his hand before he was shot, Flynn said. Smith died at the scene and a second 23-year-old man was taken into custody. The chief noted that there was no evidence Smith discharged his weapon."

http://gawker.com/scott-walker-activates-national-guard-after-destructive-1785280762

Edit: I would also like to add that Scott Walker is vile, festering piece of shit. That is all.
 
Last edited:
Innocent black and white people die at the hands of cops. That i do know is true.

The problem I have is the cases that make the biggest news seem to be legitimate shootings and many of the leaders of the movements dont care as the end justify the means of bringing out their cause.

Its really a case of two wrongs not making a right, but that doesnt seem to matter to either side.
 
I can't speak for Q Tip as I don't frequent this thread too much, I don't know if all of his views fall in line with mine or not, so...

I hate racists. Bad cops should be hammered. They shouldn't racially profile, and when found to have done so should be prosecuted. I don't think anyone disputes that.

Racists come in all colors, and that you cannot significantly reduce racism on one end unless you eliminate it on the other. Likewise, you are not going to significantly reduce problems between cops and blacks unless people are both sides are willing to view each others as individuals rather than as members of groups, and are willing to listen to the facts of each incident before jumping to conclusions.

It also isn't going to improve unless each incident is evaluated on its own merits. @Tornicade made a point above, and whether he meant it as an endorsement of that mindset or simply an observation doesn't matter:

I think we are past the point where the truth of these incidents really matter.

If that is the case, we are fucked until that is fixed because efforts to improve things will just not be believed.

That problem is compounded by the "false flag" claims of racism -- flat out lies that are invented just to rile people up. And with social media, a lie quickly becomes understood as the truth even if it is later revealed to be false once the actual facts are revealed. It becomes a lens through which you see everything else. Here's just one line links collecting some of these actions, but google "false claims of racism" and you quickly lose count.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/1044/top-10-false-claims-racism-campus-aaron-bandler

My point isn't that actual racism doesn't happen/doesn't exist. It certainly does. My point is that false claims, and actions by those who either believe the false claims or simply use them as an excuse, are going to prevent improvement from happening. Efforts at conciliation will be met by belligerence. Even if police departments improve, it won't matter because even proper police actions will turn/ be turned into something else, and reacted to accordingly. And leaving police departments out of it, false claims of racism against other people in general simply poison race relations overall.

I don't see that as improving any time in the foreseeable future, in part because of...well, you'll see.
 
Last edited:
I don't mean to single you out here, but I hear this all the time. "Black people are stirring things up. Complaining and being divisive.". I would argue that police shooting Tamir rice are the ones stirring things up. Blaming the victim for making the perpetrator look bad happens is a backwards way of thinking.

A lot of people are identifying with the perpetrators and I think they should reflect on that and ask themselves why.

Some people don't "identify" with either the victim or perpetrator until they found out more facts.

The Tamir Rice shooting was a tragedy -- unfortunate circumstances and judgement errors coming together, and a kid is dead.

But I'd guarantee you that the cop didn't wake up that morning planning on shooting a black kid.
 
Some people don't "identify" with either the victim or perpetrator until they found out more facts.

The Tamir Rice shooting was a tragedy -- unfortunate circumstances and judgement errors coming together, and a kid is dead.

But I'd guarantee you that the cop didn't wake up that morning planning on shooting a black kid.

I just think it is one of the worst ones. They drove their car to within 10 feet of the kid and then told him to drop his weapon and shot him before the car was stopped. If it was a real gun, they were stupid anyway for not protecting themselves and keeping a safer distance.

Also, that is not an excuse for a citizen when they are getting a ticket. "officer I didn't wake up intending to speed."
"Oh you didn't intend to speed? Got it, you are absolved from responsibility."

That happens neveryday.

Cops aren't less responsible for their actions than other citizens they should be more responsible because of their authority and training. A normal person hurting someone while trying to help is protected by good Samaritan laws, but medical professionals are not. There is not an equivalent for Police.

I just don't get how this doesn't fall under the personal responsibility ethos you ascribe to.
 
I just think it is one of the worst ones. They drove their car to within 10 feet of the kid and then told him to drop his weapon and shot him before the car was stopped. If it was a real gun, they were stupid anyway for not protecting themselves and keeping a safer distance.

No argument there. But here's the thing -- it was stupid. It wasn't cops planning or hoping to kill a black kid. It was a series of errors by the dispatcher (who never told them that it might not be a real gun), the driver (who pulled up too close) and the guy who hopped out. All three thought they were doing their job -- they weren't doing something just for fun or their own amusement.

But those aren't bad/evil people. They may well be decent people who just made mistakes -- as were the parents or whomever that didn't do anything about him removing the orange tip that was specifically added to toy guns precisely because too many things like this were happening.

Also, that is not an excuse for a citizen when they are getting a ticket. "officer I didn't wake up intending to speed." "Oh you didn't intend to speed? Got it, you are absolved from responsibility."

That's right. But speeding doesn't involved the kind of judgment calls that are inherent in police work, nor is a ticket a murder charge.

What I'm saying is that there are things that are tragedies, and then there are things that are more malevolent. We need to draw that distinction when judging those involved.

Just to get a flavor of what I'm trying to say, here are three things that actually happened:

1) The Tamir Rice shooting

2) Michael Brown shooting

3) The cops in New York who shot through a door after repeatedly calling the old man hiding behind it a "N*****", then denying it.

The cops were at fault in the first, but I don't think they deserved criminal punishment. City rightfully paid a shitload of money, though.

Brown was at fault in the second.

The third is easily the worst to me, even though the guy didn't die. Those are the guys you string up.
 
No argument there. But here's the thing -- it was stupid. It wasn't cops planning or hoping to kill a black kid. It was a series of errors by the dispatcher (who never told them that it might not be a real gun), the driver (who pulled up too close) and the guy who hopped out. All three thought they were doing their job -- they weren't doing something just for fun or their own amusement.

But those aren't bad/evil people. They may well be decent people who just made mistakes -- as were the parents or whomever that didn't do anything about him removing the orange tip that was specifically added to toy guns precisely because too many things like this were happening.



That's right. But speeding doesn't involved the kind of judgment calls that are inherent in police work, nor is a ticket a murder charge.

What I'm saying is that there are things that are tragedies, and then there are things that are more malevolent. We need to draw that distinction when judging those involved.

Just to get a flavor of what I'm trying to say, here are three things that actually happened:

1) The Tamir Rice shooting

2) Michael Brown shooting

3) The cops in New York who shot through a door after repeatedly calling the old man hiding behind it a "N*****", then denying it.

The cops were at fault in the first, but I don't think they deserved criminal punishment. City rightfully paid a shitload of money, though.

Brown was at fault in the second.

The third is easily the worst to me, even though the guy didn't die. Those are the guys you string up.

Not saying 1st degree murder, there are Wreckless endangerment type of charges that could be brought and are regularly brought against citizens for doing stupid things. Manslaughter and assault are also on the table.

Saying you shouldn't get criminal charges for doing stupid things that lead to terrible consequences is not consistent with what happens to citizens every day.

I do agree that not every shooting is equal and picking the correct battles would be a good first step.

As a citizen I also would prefer they not be killing us and then paying out millions of my bucks as a sorry. that isn't accountability that is the citizens paying for poor training of police with their lives and tax dollars. They have to pull me ove rmore often because they shot someone by mistake? Full pension, paid leave
 
Not saying 1st degree murder, there are Wreckless endangerment type of charges that could be brought and are regularly brought against citizens for doing stupid things. Manslaughter and assault are also on the table.

The problem is that it is the nature of a police officer's job to go into dangerous situations that most citizens are supposed to avoid. So they are going to be running into way more than their share of situations that have the possibility of a life -- including their own -- being at risk. And unless they're right, every single time...they go to jail?

I do agree that recklessness charges can be appropriate in some cases. But usually, that still requires that the person knowingly engages in risky behavior that society does not want people to engage in. So, let's say you're going 80 miles an hour down the road, lose control, and kill someone. You didn't mean to kill them, so that level of specific "intent" wasn't there. But you did intend to drive that speed (unless the car malfunctioned) so you might be prosecuted for a recklesseness-based homicide charge.

But in most cases, that's not what is happening with cops. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing, and just make a bad judgement call. That, even for civilians, isn't recklessness.

Saying you shouldn't get criminal charges for doing stupid things that lead to terrible consequences is not consistent with what happens to citizens every day.

But that's because it is not the job of citizens to seek out and engage with people committing crimes. Look, if you make a bad decision in good faith at your desk, you don't get thrown in jail. I don't think we can fairly attach criminal liability to a cop that makes an honest, but wrong, judgement call. If we do that, we're going to find that cops will bunker up, not engage with dangerous situations, etc..

As a citizen I also would prefer they not be killing us and then paying out millions of my bucks as a sorry. that isn't accountability that is the citizens paying for poor training of police with their lives and tax dollars. They have to pull me ove rmore often because they shot someone by mistake? Full pension, paid leave

I understand that. Here's the way I look at it:

A major purpose of criminal punishment is for deterrence -- don't do the crime if you can't do the time. For cops, there generally exists a huge disincentive not to wrongly shoot someone. In addition to having the normal human reluctance to take an innocent life, it can end their career, put them out of work, etc.. It also may make the object of death threats, hate, etc.. And of course, on top of that there is the huge civil fine, that creates a huge incentive for the civilian entities that control the police department to train cops properly, because they don't want wrongful deaths either.

And that's really the purpose of the civil fines -- compensation for the loss of life, and an incentive for the city to do what it can to prevent that from happening in the future.

In reality, the civil cases are when the cops acted negligently. Failure to take proper care under all the facts and circumstances. Proving intent even for recklessness is much harder.

I wish there were easier answers to all this. There just aren't. The biggest problem is that there are people on both sides of every one of these incidents, and people are both good and bad, and flawed. Some cops would make anyone sick, no question about that. The guys that were calling that old man a "N*****" through the door, then lying about it....people like that are just garbage no matter what they do for a living.

I would like to see a major emphasis on police departments, officials, etc.. attacking the concept of the blue wall. Publicly saying that sticking up for guys that are truly bad doesn't help anyone. But of course, most of those incidents never rise to the level of a fatal shooting. They're just day to day dickhead racists, likely paired with like thinking guys, and busting them is tough. And if you rat them out for "just" being racists, it's probably not enough to get them permanently fired. They'll just be sent to some counselling, then come back and be gunning for the guy that ratted them out. So, it's hard to eliminate.
 
Last edited:

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-15: "Cavs Survive and Advance"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:15: Cavs Survive and Advance
Top