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Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

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no need to apologize for optimistic articles. We could use some
 
33Y0 said:
Huh, interesting. This is great! I wonder who the other players are.
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blogs.fangraphs.com

ZiPS 2022 Top 100 Prospects

ZiPS projects its top 100 prospects, hopefully without looking too silly in five years.
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5. Valera
19. Rocchio
36. Tena
42. Arias
61. Kwan
67. Noel
88. Jones
91. Espino
97. Battenfield
98. Freeman
 
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CDAV45 said:
Not true at all. She sucks hard because she's only making $2 and makes her living on volume.
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She sucks quick, not hard, probably more of a handy for $2.
 
Lee said:
She sucks quick, not hard, probably more of a handy for $2.
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How does she do one and not the other? Sounds to me like she should charge more than $2. Everything is more expensive with inflation and all.
 
Well Shaw is officially back and Morris is shut down... Not what I want to see since I wanted to see what Morris could do.

Now, I have some issues with peeps in here, first off way to negative, secondly, put a little more faith into the FO and the prospects. I have a hunch we didn't go acquire the Happ's of the world since they feel like the young guys can produce at that type of clip...

Pederson had a 0.6 WAR via fangraphs and -0.1 WAR via baseball reference in 21 and he wasn't good in 20 either that way Fangraphs had a 1.3 projection for 22... Pham was at 1.5 WAR in 21 via fangraphs and 1.4 via baseball references while projection was 1.3 WAR for fangraphs projection... Zimmer had a 1.1 WAR via fangraphs and 1.2 WAR via baseeball reference but a projected 0.5 WAR via fangraphs.

I get the numbers are a bit misleading since Zimmer did his almost purely on defense, but if he has any type of average production offense, he would end up being a better overall production than these free agents guys...

My point is this, the FO isn't going to spend money on guys who are slight upgrades and cut a young prospect because of it. I think that's what is going on right now. They don't feel the short term, adding one win or so now, is worth cutting someone who could add just nearly as much plus cheaper and under long term control. I think we will look for the 3+ WAR types with control and if we don't find them, we are sticking to the young guys.

I think when it comes to mid season, if we are in contention we will go and make the 2016 type of trade, but I think until then we may have to be patient...
 
sportscoach said:
Well Shaw is officially back and Morris is shut down... Not what I want to see since I wanted to see what Morris could do.

Now, I have some issues with peeps in here, first off way to negative, secondly, put a little more faith into the FO and the prospects. I have a hunch we didn't go acquire the Happ's of the world since they feel like the young guys can produce at that type of clip...

Pederson had a 0.6 WAR via fangraphs and -0.1 WAR via baseball reference in 21 and he wasn't good in 20 either that way Fangraphs had a 1.3 projection for 22... Pham was at 1.5 WAR in 21 via fangraphs and 1.4 via baseball references while projection was 1.3 WAR for fangraphs projection... Zimmer had a 1.1 WAR via fangraphs and 1.2 WAR via baseeball reference but a projected 0.5 WAR via fangraphs.

I get the numbers are a bit misleading since Zimmer did his almost purely on defense, but if he has any type of average production offense, he would end up being a better overall production than these free agents guys...

My point is this, the FO isn't going to spend money on guys who are slight upgrades and cut a young prospect because of it. I think that's what is going on right now. They don't feel the short term, adding one win or so now, is worth cutting someone who could add just nearly as much plus cheaper and under long term control. I think we will look for the 3+ WAR types with control and if we don't find them, we are sticking to the young guys.

I think when it comes to mid season, if we are in contention we will go and make the 2016 type of trade, but I think until then we may have to be patient...
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How would the WAR be misleading, isn’t it supposed to be the measure of the player’s total contribution?
 
petes999 said:
To be fair, the vision is based on Ramirez. If he is out of our league $$ wise, then so is Bieber (almost a foregone conclusion). So, it will be based on next month or so of extension talks with both. Yet, they did all of the Bauers, Clevinger and Lindor trying to straddle the line with COVID (ruling out extension talks) of being competitive with both and trying to secure a base for the future. Yet, not signing any real FAs, kind of points us to where they think the talks will go.

And, as for those who say prospects don't win you anything more than beauty contests, it is how our franchise has been built. We never did anything more than in 2016 for our final push with EE and Miller. And, me being one of the biggest Rule 5 nerd around, I will be mad if they do the Lindor, Bauer and Clevinger trades all over again (spread out future/present and quantity over quality 5-1 types). If they go big and get the Morenos, Cartayas, Pearsons, Pages, .... to fill holes at C, power OF and 1B. If so, we can be 2-3 deep at each position with top-15 like talent. Add in a few pitchers when selling off Civale and/or Plesac, and you got a great Starting 5 depth lead by Quantrill and TMac with Allen Jr, Burns, Espino, Pearson type trades that will quickly fill in after this year (may even push a wild card sport by 2023 maybe). So, if they got to do it, just rip the band-aid off already and start a quick rebound.
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A fair and well reasoned posting, imho..

A small piece for discussion.. the Trades:

Bieber as a trade candidate: Not without more information, imo.. He's the horse you ride until he dies. He's the foundation of the starting pitching staff that brings the rest of the starters up to his level. He is only traded if his replacement is coming back with the rest of the haul or if you're of the belief his replacement in the Guardians' system & is ready now and ready to contribute at the ML level (e.g. Daniel Espino in 2023). Bieber's leadership role must absolutely be present.. FWiW.. Aaron Civale has that ability.. Plesac / Tmac / Quant.. not so much.. Imho, Eli Morgan has that kind of leadership ability, but, is a bit young for the role.. Without knowing who will be returning from a trade.. Bieber cannot be considered for trade.. If you do.. then that changes the music..

Ramirez w/o an extension as a trade candidate: He's the horse you trade for breeding stock as soon as you know an extension is not happening.. There are too many guys who can fill in the hot corner (Arias, Clement, others) for short/long term that won't be the target of media/fan ire. Life in the big city goes straight to hell if there is no support for a player of JRam's caliber on the team while he's planning to "test the market" as it will be.. The return will be better now than later, but, no later than the trading deadline..

I still maintain the team that has the best matching talent for the Guardians needs are the Dodgers..

Thoughts?...
 
PPark said:
How would the WAR be misleading, isn’t it supposed to be the measure of the player’s total contribution?
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He's referring to Zimmer having any positive WAR value being due to his defense.
 
PPark said:
How would the WAR be misleading, isn’t it supposed to be the measure of the player’s total contribution?
Click to expand...

If Zimmer plays everyday he actually will put up more WAR than Pederson or Pham purely on defense and a Mendoza line hitting... He would get close to 2 WAR purely on defense alone...
 
sportscoach said:
Well Shaw is officially back and Morris is shut down... Not what I want to see since I wanted to see what Morris could do.

Now, I have some issues with peeps in here, first off way to negative, secondly, put a little more faith into the FO and the prospects. I have a hunch we didn't go acquire the Happ's of the world since they feel like the young guys can produce at that type of clip...

Pederson had a 0.6 WAR via fangraphs and -0.1 WAR via baseball reference in 21 and he wasn't good in 20 either that way Fangraphs had a 1.3 projection for 22... Pham was at 1.5 WAR in 21 via fangraphs and 1.4 via baseball references while projection was 1.3 WAR for fangraphs projection... Zimmer had a 1.1 WAR via fangraphs and 1.2 WAR via baseeball reference but a projected 0.5 WAR via fangraphs.

I get the numbers are a bit misleading since Zimmer did his almost purely on defense, but if he has any type of average production offense, he would end up being a better overall production than these free agents guys...

My point is this, the FO isn't going to spend money on guys who are slight upgrades and cut a young prospect because of it. I think that's what is going on right now. They don't feel the short term, adding one win or so now, is worth cutting someone who could add just nearly as much plus cheaper and under long term control. I think we will look for the 3+ WAR types with control and if we don't find them, we are sticking to the young guys.

I think when it comes to mid season, if we are in contention we will go and make the 2016 type of trade, but I think until then we may have to be patient...
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A couple of things. First, I wouldn't say we didn't acquire anybody for any reason until the season starts. Things happened quicker than they were prepared for and I don't think FA was ever their preferred means to building a contender. We have a few weeks before the season starts which is plenty of time for anything to happen.

Morris being shut down absolutely sucks ass. I was looking forward to seeing him against MLB hitters. On the bright side as CATS mentioned, it could end up being a blessing in disguise as he likely had an IP limit so maybe he can be turned loose in the 2nd half. I'm excited to see what the kid can do because he certainly has the ingredients to be a very good ML SP.

Not sharing the sentiments of naysayers doesn't mean their impatience/aggravations are unwarranted. Literally nothing has happened to make this team better to this point so their frustration has to be understandable.

If they continue down this path they won't be anywhere close to contention and possibly further away from it than last season simply due to the improvement of our divisional foes.
 
I feel ignorant on Morris. Where’d he come from? UP thru the system or did he come in some trade?
 
sportscoach said:
If Zimmer plays everyday he actually will put up more WAR than Pederson or Pham purely on defense and a Mendoza line hitting... He would get close to 2 WAR purely on defense alone...
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Boy that would be exciting to watch! Zimmer should not have been on the roster over the winter, defense be damned. Hell, if that's the case then we don't need any corner OFers for the next couple of yrs. We can just put Mercado in LF, Straw in CF, and Zimmer in RF and gain 6-8 WAR defensively alone.
 
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