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  1. #3481
    Drafting workout allstars RchfldCavRaised's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    No?

    Now, let's see here. Dion Waiters was going to go in the top 10. If not us, then very quickly after. Faried, on the other hand, actually did go late in the first round.

    You name two players, Faried and Klay Thompson. You then throw in the general "or anyone else who has a basketball IQ" without naming anyone else. No why? Because there is no one else from the draft that looks all that wonderful right now. None. That draft was a total crap shoot and the odds of coming up with garbage were high. Fact is, I'd much rather be us with Thompson than Charlotte with Biyambo, Utah with Kanter, or Washington with Vesley.

    EDIT: And btw, Klay Thompson is currently lighting it up with a sizzling 35% FG.
    Im not really loving Faried, as much as I think he is a better version of what we hoped Tristan could mature into. I like Klay though and still think he may be one of the best from that draft as the Warriors establish a heirarchy in go-to guys.

    Ive actually exhausted my Tristan hate and am looking for improvement or signs from him in game to game play that he is going to start showing some feel for the game, more than I care to rehash that draft.

    I was posting drunk last night (kanye shrug, I can admit that when reading what I typed the next day)

    Just found out one of my dudes was killed in Akron and another was shot and in critical condition. Nevermind that tirade.
    The Richfield Trade Deadline Survival Kit post... here

  2. #3482
    Tonight's the night. B Mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    This might be a little Cleveland sacreligious, and Im trying to find the best way to say this... but is it at all possible that instead of actually helping Tristan, Varejao is stunting TT's growth?

    Here's my thoughts:

    - If you are Kyrie Irving and you have your choice of running a pick and roll with Varejao or Tristan who would you pick every single time? Conversely, if you are Coach Scott and you are calling a pick and roll who would you want to run it, Varejao or Tristan? It's clear Varejao is better in these situations, but getting actual game time reps is huge for TT's development.
    - Varejao is being assigned the top offensive front court player every time he is on the court. Again, it's clear Varejao is better in these situations, but getting actual game time reps is huge for TT's development.
    - TT can rely on Varejao to always be there to do the dirty work so Tristan has not really had to learn where to correctly position himself in these situations.
    - Etc...

    Im quite positive that TT has learned a ton from Varejao over the last year, but there is something to be said for being thrown into the fire and learning from taking your lumps. Losing Varejao would clearly make us worse in the short term, but if the net benefit is making Thompson better in the long term, plus adding in the benefit of whatever assets an AV trade could net, I think it's definitely something to be considered.


    P.S. I feel dirty even typing negative things about AV.
    ZZZ

  3. #3483
    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Man, and for all the love Kawhi Leonard gets, the guy so far has shown to be nothing more than a solid player, but no star potential. He's averaging 9 points a game currently. Tristan, mind you, hasn't shown star potential either, but it's not like we missed out on some sure-fire stud here.
    Quote Originally Posted by David.
    Idiot

  4. #3484
    The Bushido doctrine Homer Safari's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Thompson may be losing his matchups but he is the only guy holding his counterparts under 50% shooting. His opponenets are also shooting the ball twice as much as he does. They are also turning over the ball twice as much.

    he has 4 consecutive games scoring 10 points or more averaging a little more than 8 shots a game. His shot blocking has trailed off but his ability to steal the ball has increased. so its apparent he is adding that to his game. at some point he will be able to do both.

    His Jump shot has increased in a small sample. by 7 percent. He is also learning how to perform better in the half court offense while making more of an effort to get involved in the initial set. His percentage in 0-10 seconds may be lower but its clear his positioning is getting better. He is also taking jump shots off the pass instead of bubbling the ball and converting more.

    The guy is improving . slowly but his game is evolving.

    Shooting Details 2012
    Shot selection
    Shot
    Att.
    eFG%
    Ast'd
    Blk'd
    Pts
    Jump
    36% .353 100% 18% 1.7
    Close
    30% .429 33% 43% 1.7
    Dunk
    21% .800 75% 10% 2.3
    Tips
    13% .167 0% 0% .3
    Inside
    64% .500 53% 23% 4.3
    Shot clock usage
    Secs.
    Att.
    eFG%
    Ast'd
    Blk'd
    Pts
    0-10
    55% .385 30% 19% 2.9
    11-15
    17% .500 100% 25% 1.1
    16-20
    23% .455 100% 27% 1.4
    21+
    4% 1.000 100% 0% .6
    Crunch
    28% .538 100% 23% 2.0


    Shooting Details 2011
    Shot selection
    Shot
    Att.
    eFG%
    Ast'd
    Blk'd
    Pts
    Jump
    39% .283 45% 17% 1.6
    Close
    39% .442 49% 22% 2.5
    Dunk
    15% .897 59% 3% 2.0
    Tips
    7% .276 0% 0% .3
    Inside
    61% .539 50% 15% 4.8
    Shot clock usage
    Secs.
    Att.
    eFG%
    Ast'd
    Blk'd
    Pts
    0-10
    40% .514 30% 12% 3.1
    11-15
    19% .402 67% 15% 1.1
    16-20
    23% .408 74% 21% 1.4
    21+
    18% .346 52% 18% .9
    Crunch
    41% .381 65% 20% 2.3

  5. #3485
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RchfldCavRaised View Post
    Shut the hell up with this "we had to take a big man and only Faried is better" logic. Be objective.

    This team was a blank puzzle when we were on the clock for that draft. We had just selected Kyrie and that was all we had. Everyone other than Kyrie, Derrick Williams and Enes Kanter was available to us. You cant glorify Grant for taking Dion when everyone originally projected him to be 20-24th and then excuse him for passing on players who everyone projected to go just as late but are playing great.

    Everyone in that draft was available after the first 3, and its tough when you watch Tristan Thompson play, who we reached for just as easily as we could have reached for Faried, Klay Thompson or anyone else who is has a basketball IQ.

    The guy is a can. I see this hope from a majority that some light will go on, and even once it does, he will be a marginal PF with a easily replaceable skillset.

    Not looking good. But hey, we've got nothing but time.
    It's not an exact science. Do you realize what that means? You're not always going to select the best player, even if you're the best GM. Mock drafts are wrong every year, both in the order guys are selected, and the order they should have been selected. Same with every GM. All you can do is hope that on average Grant is making better picks than the competition. This hindsight crap is bull, sick of reading it (and you're not even letting enough time to pass to necessarily be accurate with the hindsight, these guys are not done improving). I heard Faried's name before the draft, but who in this forum was clamoring for the Cavs to take him at #4? You? Just him or him and 5 other guys with that single pick? It's just too damn easy to do what you're doing. It's always predictable that some people in the forum will do it, it's boring, easy, and annoying to claim the GM should have known better after you've had the benefit of a season of hindsight.

    When you select 4th, 9 times out of 10 (made up stat) there will be a better player selected somewhere after that pick in the draft. It's just a mathematical likelihood. Check past draft boards and compare 4th pick with the best player picked after 4. It's not an exact science. We can still get a very good player and not get the best player 4 or after, and win basketball games. Name me one GM who's going to select the best player available every single time.

  6. #3486
    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    And here's the thing about the Faried stuff, don't you think EVERY team is wishing they had drafted him? After Kyrie, he's clearly been the second best rookie from that class. I mean he's just a guy everyone missed on and that happens sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by David.
    Idiot

  7. #3487
    Drafting workout allstars RchfldCavRaised's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RTrees View Post
    Name me one GM who's going to select the best player available every single time.
    Have you noticed I never answer your posts? I dont even read them. But by all means, type away and keep reaching out to me.
    The Richfield Trade Deadline Survival Kit post... here

  8. #3488
    Drafting workout allstars RchfldCavRaised's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by B Mac View Post
    This might be a little Cleveland sacreligious, and Im trying to find the best way to say this... but is it at all possible that instead of actually helping Tristan, Varejao is stunting TT's growth?

    Here's my thoughts:

    - If you are Kyrie Irving and you have your choice of running a pick and roll with Varejao or Tristan who would you pick every single time? Conversely, if you are Coach Scott and you are calling a pick and roll who would you want to run it, Varejao or Tristan? It's clear Varejao is better in these situations, but getting actual game time reps is huge for TT's development.
    - Varejao is being assigned the top offensive front court player every time he is on the court. Again, it's clear Varejao is better in these situations, but getting actual game time reps is huge for TT's development.
    - TT can rely on Varejao to always be there to do the dirty work so Tristan has not really had to learn where to correctly position himself in these situations.
    - Etc...

    Im quite positive that TT has learned a ton from Varejao over the last year, but there is something to be said for being thrown into the fire and learning from taking your lumps. Losing Varejao would clearly make us worse in the short term, but if the net benefit is making Thompson better in the long term, plus adding in the benefit of whatever assets an AV trade could net, I think it's definitely something to be considered.


    P.S. I feel dirty even typing negative things about AV.
    I get what you are saying here. Kyrie and Dion will ultimately have less patience and trust in Tristan as long as Andy is there. And in that way, it will stunt his development into being their safety valve/target big man when they drive.

    In those few games Andy missed, Tristan did not slide into that "outlet-cutting-big-man" role though. Not that it would happen that quickly, but there is a feel Andy has for where to be to balance the floor on offense and get boards on defense that I dont think is something that can be learned. Ironically, I see more potential in Tyler to fill a role like that as a mobile big/cutting big man. Great hands and nice feel for playing without the ball.
    The Richfield Trade Deadline Survival Kit post... here

  9. #3489
    The Bushido doctrine Homer Safari's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Zeller will be the man working the top of the key when andy isnt on the floor. maybe even sometimes when he is. Thompson has a bit more work to do.

    The thing is that if AV sees Thompson getting neglected with sweet looks. andy will set the example and get the ball to him.

    One thing I am seeing is that last year. you would see Irving go in for a layup followed by varejao making sure it stuck.Now your starting to see thompson in the scene more often in those types of situations.

  10. #3490
    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo29 View Post
    But what's your POINT when you say that??? Do you expect us to have taken faried?? NOBODY would have at 4. He's a LIMITED pick with LIMITED upside because of his size.
    And the year older argument IS a valid argument

    In 365 days, TT could be WAY better than he is now. I have a feeling he spent last offseason working on his jumpshot and "black holeness" and next offseason he'll spend it working on his post game.
    TT could be this, he could be that, if he does this, if he does that. TT is a raw, project big with unbelievably bad mechanics, a lack of feel for the game around him, athleticism that shows up more on paper than the court, measurments that look good on paper but leave you rubbing your eyes as he fumbles balls all over the place and gets blocked at the rim at an extremely alarming rate, and doesn't seem to possess the instincts that make for a dominant rebounder.

    And Faried is the limited one? Because of his size? The dude plays the way, with the type of athleticism, that TT only dreams of. He plays like he's bigger than TT, while TT plays like he's smaller than Faried. Funny how that shit works isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Faried spent four years in college. You rarely see big men who go all four years get drafted in the top ten, let alone the top five.
    I understand that, but it doesn't make it right. The system is flawed. Back in the day, when you were a raw big, you were supposed to stay in school and polish your game. Nowadays, a guy has a 40 inch vert, and gets drafted in the top 10. It's a joke. The NBA should not be where you develop 20 year olds who can't play a lick of basketball.

  11. #3491
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RchfldCavRaised View Post
    Have you noticed I never answer your posts? I dont even read them. But by all means, type away and keep reaching out to me.
    Actually I don't look at the name of the post I respond to in most cases, including this one. I don't know or care who you are. You said something that coincided with some really boring/annoying/predictable posts that we see from MANY posters in basketball forums. Don't take it personally, you are not alone. It's really not about you, it's about what you wrote, as much as that might be hard for you to acknowledge.

    Another "he's attacking me!" poster. Sigh...

  12. #3492
    Guardian of the Cavaliers Green Lantern's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RchfldCavRaised View Post
    Im not really loving Faried, as much as I think he is a better version of what we hoped Tristan could mature into. I like Klay though and still think he may be one of the best from that draft as the Warriors establish a heirarchy in go-to guys.

    Ive actually exhausted my Tristan hate and am looking for improvement or signs from him in game to game play that he is going to start showing some feel for the game, more than I care to rehash that draft.

    I was posting drunk last night (kanye shrug, I can admit that when reading what I typed the next day)

    Just found out one of my dudes was killed in Akron and another was shot and in critical condition. Nevermind that tirade.
    Sorry to hear that RF. I haven't posted much about TT,because I want to see if he developes into more of a defensive presence,although I'm not banking on it.

  13. #3493
    Logjammin' narbar32's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RchfldCavRaised View Post
    I get what you are saying here. Kyrie and Dion will ultimately have less patience and trust in Tristan as long as Andy is there. And in that way, it will stunt his development into being their safety valve/target big man when they drive.

    In those few games Andy missed, Tristan did not slide into that "outlet-cutting-big-man" role though. Not that it would happen that quickly, but there is a feel Andy has for where to be to balance the floor on offense and get boards on defense that I dont think is something that can be learned. Ironically, I see more potential in Tyler to fill a role like that as a mobile big/cutting big man. Great hands and nice feel for playing without the ball.
    I'll readily admit that I'm prone to snap judgments, but I think I'm securely at the point where I can say that part in bold by itself, generally.

    Tyler only has just over one year on Tristan in age. I don't know why, but that just strikes me as surprising; I think it has to do with where each is supposed to be on the spectrum of "raw as fuck" to "finished product."

    Then I think about what each brings to the table now and what each may be able to bring to the table in the future with some development. In terms of perception, Tristan should be the far superior athlete, but I'm not quite seeing it work out that way on the court. They are both pretty fast in straight-line speed for bigs, Tristan is quicker laterally, but I actually think Zeller looks more natural and sudden and maybe even explosive in attacking the basket. Their athletic testing results aren't all that dissimilar, with Tristan only having an inch higher max vert (35'', disregarding the mysterious Sports Science number) and the same no-step vert (30'') and testing a little faster and quicker.

    Neither looks to have much of a mean streak or projects to be some sort of enforcer-type paint protector. Tristan may have better potential defensively because of his superior length and seemingly better feel for blocking shots, but I'd say Tyler has a better frame for putting on weight (Tristan only has so much more ass that he can afford to add) and already seems to have pretty good defensive instincts.

    Most importantly, however, I just see worlds more potential in Tyler offensively than I do in Tristan. Zeller has a jumper now; Tristan doesn't. Zeller looks like he may have at least some ability to work out of the post now; Tristan doesn't. And Tyler can fucking dunk with one hand. Joking aside, I've been highly impressed with Tyler's hands in the limited sample size, seeing him catch passes in fairly awkward positions running the floor and being able to go from catch to layup/dunk quickly, while Tristan's hands and time from catch to layup/dunk has looked notoriously bad so far. And while I'd bet that Tristan's offensive rebounding ability will always be better, Tyler can do some of that, too.

    Point being, I'm finding myself currently able to feel a little bit better about the situation if I imagine that Zeller was our top 5 pick last year and Tristan was our #17 pick this past draft, even though it makes no difference in practical terms. Truth is, the 2011 draft really is looking like a pretty terrible one in terms of top end talent, aside from Kyrie, which makes us both incredibly lucky and not-so-lucky at the same time. We've had 4 top 17 picks in the past two drafts, 3 of them in the top 4, and there's only one player out of them who at this early stage can be called a surefire starter. But I just feel a little more comfortable when I imagine Kyrie, Dion, and Zeller as the top 5 picks and projected starters and consider Tristan as the outside-the-lottery, possible steal, probable any-man, who may or may not be part of our future core.

    And if many fans' wildest dreams about wild thing Andy come true and he stays on the team, stays healthy enough, and follows that hoped trajectory as a modern day Rodman, the thought of Zeller as the other big starting next to him sounds a lot more exciting and logical than having Tristan there.

    But there is still so much work to be done on this roster, both in development and by acquisition, that it's hard to project much of anything with any certainty, and by the time Tyler gets some more time under his belt, I might be singing an entirely different tune, too.

  14. #3494
    Team Player Len's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by narbar32 View Post

    Point being, I'm finding myself currently able to feel a little bit better about the situation if I imagine that Zeller was our top 5 pick last year and Tristan was our #17 pick this past draft, even though it makes no difference in practical terms. Truth is, the 2011 draft really is looking like a pretty terrible one in terms of top end talent, aside from Kyrie, which makes us both incredibly lucky and not-so-lucky at the same time. We've had 4 top 17 picks in the past two drafts, 3 of them in the top 4, and there's only one player out of them who at this early stage can be called a surefire starter. But I just feel a little more comfortable when I imagine Kyrie, Dion, and Zeller as the top 5 picks and projected starters and consider Tristan as the outside-the-lottery, possible steal, probable any-man, who may or may not be part of our future core.
    My mind has been changed. I will now assume the same thing. Zeller was #4 and Tristan was #17. Done.

  15. #3495
    All Star BigErieCavsFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by narbar32 View Post
    Neither looks to have much of a mean streak or projects to be some sort of enforcer-type paint protector.
    But I already give Zeller the edge in the mean streak/enforcer type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    My mind has been changed. I will now assume the same thing. Zeller was #4 and Tristan was #17. Done.
    I'm on board.

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