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  1. #3736
    Veteran Czvosec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Scholar23 View Post
    You do realize you are arguing both sides of the same coin. How is the opponent getting extra possessions important, but you getting them not important? Isn't it really just the same thing from different sides?
    Yes and no. The way I'm viewing it (and I could be very wrong on this), getting a defensive rebound results in a stop which directly contributes to a team's defensive efficiency. However, getting an offensive rebound does not necessarily contribute to offensive efficiency because getting an offensive board doesn't mean a team is going to score.

    Am I making sense? Sometimes, I'm not even sure...

  2. #3737
    Drafting workout allstars RchfldCavRaised's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Thanks for the PM with the link Jon,

    I placed my order for the same magical glasses the TT apologists have been using to watch him over the past year and change. Should be here before our next game. Finally I can see what justifies patience and rationalizes his horrible play on the court.

    They sent me this confirmation email... I will be amongst you lucky few who truly "get" Tristan, soon enough



    The Richfield Trade Deadline Survival Kit post... here

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  4. #3738
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Czvosec View Post
    True, but how much does OFFENSIVE rebounding really contribute to that... is the point I was trying to make. We know defensive rebounding is significant since it keeps the opposing team from extra opportunities.

    I just think its interesting and something that should be looked at more.
    Defensive rebounding tends to be over-rated, because you get a fair number of those just for being big. You're supposed to grab those.

    The benefit of offensive rebounding is pretty obvious though. If on every 10th shot you get an offensive rebound, and 1/2 the time you score on that, you raise your FG% by .5%. You also run clock, deny the opponent the ball, make them work more on D, potentially draw fouls, and hurt the other team's transition game - this is unless you're not getting enough men back on D.

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  6. #3739
    Sports Archaeologist Scholar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Czvosec View Post
    Yes and no. The way I'm viewing it (and I could be very wrong on this), getting a defensive rebound results in a stop which directly contributes to a team's defensive efficiency. However, getting an offensive rebound does not necessarily contribute to offensive efficiency because getting an offensive board doesn't mean a team is going to score.

    Am I making sense? Sometimes, I'm not even sure...
    I understand where you are coming from. I am just not so sure I agree with the stance is all.

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  8. #3740
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by RchfldCavRaised View Post
    I placed my order for the same magical glasses the TT apologists have been using to watch him over the past year and change.
    I hope they work for you. btw, how are you watching the games down in Tennessee? Are you in FSOH territory? If you heard some of these opposing announcers go nuts over Andy and Tristan and what they're doing to their team, you wouldn't be so shocked.

  9. #3741
    Veteran Czvosec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Defensive rebounding tends to be over-rated, because you get a fair number of those just for being big. You're supposed to grab those.

    The benefit of offensive rebounding is pretty obvious though. If on every 10th shot you get an offensive rebound, and 1/2 the time you score on that, you raise your FG% by .5%. You also run clock, deny the opponent the ball, make them work more on D, potentially draw fouls, and hurt the other team's transition game - this is unless you're not getting enough men back on D.
    So it essentially comes back to what Scholar said originally. If you're a good offensive team, then offensive rebounding means something. If not, then offensive rebounding is insignificant.

  10. #3742
    Veteran Czvosec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Scholar23 View Post
    I understand where you are coming from. I am just not so sure I agree with the stance is all.
    And to be honest, I'm not even sure I agree with what I'm saying. Mostly brought it up as a talking point, and I'm more than willing to change my stance on it if its proven that offensive rebounding correlates to winning.

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    Drafting workout allstars RchfldCavRaised's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I hope they work for you. btw, how are you watching the games down in Tennessee? Are you in FSOH territory? If you heard some of these opposing announcers go nuts over Andy and Tristan and what they're doing to their team, you wouldn't be so shocked.
    Im watching them on NBA League broadband when I am out of the house. Usually, the archive feed is from the winning team so that gives it away most games, but it also allows for me to listen to the other broadcasters.

    Seldom, do they pick apart the weaknesses of our players. They do often ridicule his free throw form and delivery though.
    The Richfield Trade Deadline Survival Kit post... here

  12. #3744
    Private eyes, Watchin You Tornicade IED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Czvosec View Post
    So it essentially comes back to what Scholar said originally. If you're a good offensive team, then offensive rebounding means something. If not, then offensive rebounding is insignificant.
    no the best way to offset a teams offensive boards is by shoting the ball more efficiently. or allowing the same rate of offensive rebounding as what your getting (utah, Sacramento)


    The Cavs shoot 42%. their opponents 49%.

    more opportunities benefit any offense.

    The Cavs have 175 offensive rebounds. their oppononents 119. thats 56 extra possesions on the season. thats 4 extra possessions more than their opponent.

    Cleveland is currently 5th in offensive rebound percentage and 4th in defensive rebounding percentage.
    Last edited by Tornicade IED; 11-25-2012 at 07:29 PM.

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  14. #3745
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Well, there's going to be an obvious correlation to low shooting percentage and higher offensive rebounding numbers. The more chances you get, the higher your numbers should be. So far, the Cavs are a textbook example of this. Our FG% is 25th and we are 5th in both total offensive rebounds and ORB%. I mean, could there be any more of a perfectly assimilated correlation there? But, with that said, we are still only 18th in total scoring offense. So, it seems like we're just not very good at turning opps into points. We get a good number of our misses, but still don't convert at a high rate when given numerous opps.

    So, while TT does grab a good number of boards, it seems like he should given the number of opps he gets(TZ is only .9 less ORB per 36 than TT btw). But, it doesn't correlate to winning.

    Looking at the rest of the top teams in the NBA:

    *OKC is 3rd in FG%, 2nd in ppg, but only 21st in total ORB and 23rd in ORB%.

    *NYK is 8th in FG%, 3rd in PPG, but only 29 in total ORB and 28th in ORB%.(As one would assume, they are near the top in 3pt and 3pt%).

    *LAC is 5th in FG%, 11th in PPG, but only 18th in total ORB and 14th in ORB%.

    *MEM is only 16th in FG%, but they are 6th in PPG, not because they are only 16th in total ORB, but because they are 3rd in ORB%.(Zach Randolph is a beast offensive rebounder who can actually convert second chances).

    *SAS are 3rd in FG%, 9th in PPG, but only 25th in total ORB and 26th in ORB%.

    *MIA is 1st in FG%, 1st in PPG, but only 27th in total ORB and 25th in ORB%.

    Obviously, there are a bunch of other factors not being considered here. But, it seems pretty cut and dry that the most successful teams rely much more on making a better percentage of their shots than those who need to rely on high offensive rebounding percentages. MEM has a slight variance, but I think that only shows what having a guy like Z Bo will do for you. Not only does he grab a bunch of ORB, but he converts them at a high rate as well(exact opposite of TT).

    Conversely, we see the exact opposite with losing teams. They mostly seem to shoot a low percentage and grab a much higher rate of ORB.

    *DET, WAS, CLE, TOR, SAC all show that having average-poor FG% and average to good ORB rates don't necessarily correlate to above average PPG or W's. They're just not converting their second chances.

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  16. #3746
    Send Sideshow to ASG Pioneer10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Czvosec View Post
    Yes and no. The way I'm viewing it (and I could be very wrong on this), getting a defensive rebound results in a stop which directly contributes to a team's defensive efficiency. However, getting an offensive rebound does not necessarily contribute to offensive efficiency because getting an offensive board doesn't mean a team is going to score.

    Am I making sense? Sometimes, I'm not even sure...
    I don't think this works: even if you're team is really bad on offense you would still want to get more opportunities to score. Tristan's offensive rebounds are a definite plus.

    As a caveat: The only time I can think of a negative is if you're guards have a high offensive rebound. They maybe coming in for a rebound which if they don't get leaves the other team with fast break opportunity.
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
    Michael Lewis


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    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer10 View Post
    I don't think this works: even if you're team is really bad on offense you would still want to get more opportunities to score. Tristan's offensive rebounds are a definite plus.

    As a caveat: The only time I can think of a negative is if you're guards have a high offensive rebound. They maybe coming in for a rebound which if they don't get leaves the other team with fast break opportunity.
    The numbers I posted pretty clearly bear out that almost all winning teams are amongst the lowest in ORB%. That seems more than a coincidence.

    Sure, would you rather have more opps? Of course. It just seems to me that it doesn't correlate to winning.

    Good teams seemingly don't rely on good ORB. They convert much more of their first opps than bad teams. And even when the bad teams seem to get more second chances, it still doesn't equate to winning basketball.
    Last edited by Giambiwannabe7; 11-25-2012 at 07:37 PM.

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  19. #3748
    Private eyes, Watchin You Tornicade IED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    or it may be representative fof a small sample size consideirng last year the top 5 offensive rebounding teams went to the playoffs but yeah trends from 13 or 14 games definatly have more weight than whole seasons.
    Last edited by Tornicade IED; 11-25-2012 at 07:45 PM.

  20. #3749
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    The numbers I posted pretty clearly bear out that almost all winning teams are amongst the lowest in ORB%. That seems more than a coincidence.

    Sure, would you rather have more opps? Of course. It just seems to me that it doesn't correlate to winning.

    Good teams seemingly don't rely on good ORB. They convert much more of their first opps than bad teams. And even when the bad teams seem to get more second chances, it still doesn't equate to winning basketball.
    It's not that good teams rely less on offensive rebounding. Good teams just make more shots, and thus there are less offensive rebounds to be had. I don't see any situation where having a guy who is good on the offensive glass is a bad thing. He may grab less offensive rebounds on a good team, but he's still valuable and still creates extra possessions.

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  22. #3750
    Send Sideshow to ASG Pioneer10's Avatar
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    Default

    Team stats don't necessarily reflect the value of an individual. For example, Orlando for years was a poor shotblocking team when they lost Gortat but damn having one great shotblocker still helped them be a decent defensive team

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    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
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