Tristan Thompson

[ArchieBunker7]

I don't see why you have to sacrifice either. Very few teams run five guys on the court at a time who can knock down jumpers. Most teams have at least one guy who is there mostly for defense and rebounding. You can absolutely have good rebounding and good shooting on the same team.

So, you don't find it all curious that all 4 teams from the Conference Finals all were in the top 5 of FG%, yet averaged 21st in ORB%? To me, that says a ton. I'm not talking about playing 5 guys who can knock jumpers down. But, if you're gonna be a one trick pony, it seems much more beneficial to have a good shooter than a good rebounder.

Of course having both on the same team is great, but that just doesn't seem to be too easily done. The stats show most every team is either one or the other or they hover in the middle of the league in both. You just don't see very many good shooting teams who also grab a high percentage of offensive rebounds. The numbers bear it out. And in the end, of these teams, the ones who shootwell seem to be left standing in the end.

[Tornicade]

So, you don't find it all curious that all 4 teams from the Conference Finals all were in the top 5 of FG%, yet averaged 21st in ORB%? To me, that says a ton. I'm not talking about playing 5 guys who can knock jumpers down. But, if you're gonna be a one trick pony, it seems much more beneficial to have a good shooter than a good rebounder.

Of course having both on the same team is great, but that just doesn't seem to be too easily done. The stats show most every team is either one or the other or they hover in the middle of the league in both. You just don't see very many good shooting teams who also grab a high percentage of offensive rebounds. The numbers bear it out. And in the end, of these teams, the ones who shootwell seem to be left standing in the end.

you did notice that the two teams with the higher orb percentage was the ones that went to the finals?

Rk	Team	G	W	L	W-L%	PW	PL	ORtg	DRtg	Pace	eFG% ▾	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	eFG%	TOV%	DRB%	FT/FGA
1	San Antonio Spurs	14	10	4	.714	9.8	4.2	110.3	103.9	92.4	.541	.138	.218	.212	.480	.126	.748	.216
2	Oklahoma City Thunder	20	13	7	.650	12.7	7.3	111.8	107.4	90.6	.508	.113	.236	.251	.491	.137	.747	.262
3	Miami Heat	23	16	7	.696	17.1	5.9	109.6	101.6	88.0	.505	.128	.261	.271	.466	.140	.740	.229
4	Los Angeles Clippers	11	4	7	.364	3.7	7.3	101.3	106.5	88.9	.499	.147	.222	.210	.491	.145	.710	.268
5	Boston Celtics	20	11	9	.550	10.8	9.2	100.4	99.2	87.8	.468	.130	.201	.224	.464	.134	.751	.203

your trying to argue against conventional wisdom based on one playoff season.

[RTrees]

I don't see why you have to sacrifice either. Very few teams run five guys on the court at a time who can knock down jumpers. Most teams have at least one guy who is there mostly for defense and rebounding. You can absolutely have good rebounding and good shooting on the same team.

Agreed. Partially because offensive rebounds are often in position for high percentage shots.

Offensive rebounds create efficient offense overall, meaning a trip down the floor converts to points more often, even if that possession involved a missed shot, cutting fg% in half (or thirds, etc) for that trip down. Scoring per possession may be a more significant stat than FG% SMKNJoe, as it allows for missed shots to be converted into buckets before the other team gets the ball back. The goal of every possession is a bucket, not a high fg%.

[jlegg21]

I feel like this entire thread is a psychiatrist's couch for fans to talk themselves off the "Tristan Thompson was a mistake" ledge. You know, for those of us who watch the guy play and cant shake that sinking feeling that he's a slightly smaller, bouncier DeSagana Diop.

I know, I know, too early to tell. He's young with upside. The eye test is misleading. Etc etc...

I admire the optimism, I really do. Go to town with all that Probball-reference, pie charts, tables and graphs. Whatever helps the fan base sleep at night, I guess.

[TyGuy]

I don't see why you have to sacrifice either. Very few teams run five guys on the court at a time who can knock down jumpers. Most teams have at least one guy who is there mostly for defense and rebounding. You can absolutely have good rebounding and good shooting on the same team.

Sure, but you typically don't use a high lottery pick to get such a guy when you are starving for any kind of offensive post presence.

Sent from my ass using tapatalk 2

[apolo29]

Guys. This debate has been rehashed a thousand times.
Tristan sucks.

No He doesnt.
Give him time.
Why didn't we draft late first rounder kenneth faried at 4.
Nobody would have.

250 pages summarized. Can we start talking about the games he's having? I think he's doing pretty good lately.

[RTrees]

For the record, Tristan passes the "eye test" for me, and probably anybody who understands that he is a young "project" with something like 80 games under his belt. There is plenty going on out there on the court on both ends of the floor. I see it. If you don't, just stick with the Diop comparison and somebody can end up quoting you at the end of every post like somebody does with the rich man's Boobie Gibson comment.

[BimboColesHair]

Problem with Tristan that I think a lot of people have is that when you think of a highly drafted big, you think of a guy who can score in a vast amount of ways, but is soft and plays shitty post defense (Bosh, Bargnani, Villanueva, Channing Frye, Aldridge, etc.), where as Tristan is the complete opposite. No big ever comes out a complete player these days, unless you're lucky enough to be the Spurs and draft Tim Duncan. It takes a little bit of time to get rid of all of those improper fundamentals that he has used ever since he started playing basketball and, hopefully, he is realizing he can't just rely on his size and athleticism that made him a top high school prospect and a lotto pick when he was dominating 6 foot white guys. Is Tristan improving? Yes, watching him this year I can see improvement. Is he a good player yet? No. The people who bash the ones defending Tristan need to realize there is a difference between improving, which Tristan is, and being a good player, which Tristan isn't yet.

[Frank Reynolds]

Problem with Tristan that I think a lot of people have is that when you think of a highly drafted big, you think of a guy who can score in a vast amount of ways, but is soft and plays shitty post defense (Bosh, Bargnani, Villanueva, Channing Frye, Aldridge, etc.), where as Tristan is the complete opposite. No big ever comes out a complete player these days, unless you're lucky enough to be the Spurs and draft Tim Duncan. It takes a little bit of time to get rid of all of those improper fundamentals that he has used ever since he started playing basketball and, hopefully, he is realizing he can't just rely on his size and athleticism that made him a top high school prospect and a lotto pick when he was dominating 6 foot white guys. Is Tristan improving? Yes, watching him this year I can see improvement. Is he a good player yet? No. The people who bash the ones defending Tristan need to realize there is a difference between improving, which Tristan is, and being a good player, which Tristan isn't yet.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Please God, this debate has been covered by every single possible angle. THIS IS THE MOST ACCURATE STATEMENT about Tristan Thompson I have seen in the entire thread. For the pessimists, I see his ass get swatted every time too. He definitely is taking some huge lumps right now, but to claim to know this dudes career trajectory is disingenuous and assumptive.

[Joe Henderson]

I feel like this entire thread is a psychiatrist's couch for fans to talk themselves off the "Tristan Thompson was a mistake" ledge. You know, for those of us who watch the guy play and cant shake that sinking feeling that he's a slightly smaller, bouncier DeSagana Diop.

I know, I know, too early to tell. He's young with upside. The eye test is misleading. Etc etc...

I admire the optimism, I really do. Go to town with all that Probball-reference, pie charts, tables and graphs. Whatever helps the fan base sleep at night, I guess.

No, this thread is a sandbox for the irrational Tristan hate that has flooded this board like an epidemic. Which makes some people come in and try to counter that several ways. To which the ultimate answer is always that he doesn't look comfortable on the court or doesn't seem to have good offensive awareness, which is a weak-ass copout, as there's no way of disputing someone's impressions or feelings. Diop? Really?

Like Bimbo, i also get the impression that lot of the Tristan hate feeds on the ignorant fans who only look at scoring numbers to determine a player's worth. Oh, he's a lottery pick, so he must be scoring 15+ in his second year, otherwise he's worthless. Then there's the Jonas V camp, who for some reason feel like they have to prove every day that they were right about that pick and Grant was wrong. And of course, there are a lot of them who use the Tristan bashing to try to have a go at Grant for whatever reason -- i'd guess they are the guys who used to slam Ferry incessantly and would do the same to whatever GM, because that's the way they are. Dudes on the internet who really should be running a pro basetball team, just nobody has given them a chance yet.

Whatever. I'm not sure why people can't just take it for what it is. Yes, he's young, yes, he's developing and no, he won't ever be a 20-10 guy probably. What he already is, though, is a low-maintenance guy who works hard, crashes the boards, plays solid defense and lives off of putbacks and garbage scoring. You don't need to run plays for him, which is actually quite valuable when you have two high-usage guards like Kyrie and Dion. Yeah, you would like to see him shoot better (though he at least plays within himself and doesn't try stupid crap he can't make) and it would be great if he'd get to the line more and shoot a better % of FTs.

Ultimately, though, who knows if he's the right type of PF for what the Cavs are building? That's gonna depend on this coming draft as well as how much further his game comes along in the next couple of years. If he turns out to be not the right kind of guy? Well, trade his ass. That's what happens when teams rebuild through the draft. Not all of your picks are gonna work out, so you have to swap out some of them to balance out your roster.

But the Cavs are not at that point yet. At least one more draft and probably one more free agency period will be needed to determine what to do with the assembled parts. Those will be decisions to be made at the end of next season, i would guess.

[GQinCtown]

Hate this pick. We should have drafted Kawhi! Or Klay! Or Faried!

Give it a fucking rest! Those three are more overrated on this site than AT&T park, the Jersey Shore, and anal sex combined!

Some of you act as if they're setting the basketball world on fire. Klay Thompson's 35 FG% is doing the exact opposite. And come on! You're a 6'7 SG, play some D! Kawhi is a good defensive player, more of a spot of shooter than anything else on offense. Can't create a damn thing for others, I mean TT has more assists than the guy. With his teammates, I'd think he would have the ability to tally up 1apg. Guess not. Wouldn't have been much of an upgrade from Gee. And speaking of shooting, his 3pt% has regressed since last season.

And then there's the RCF MVP, Kenneth Faried. He's having a great season. Averaging 3ppg and 3rpg more than Tristan with a better FG%. However he is older, and is one of the WORST pick and roll defenders in the game.

I'm sure we can all agree that the 2011 draft was terrible (so far). I honestly can't think of a worse one. Somehow people don't realize that TT still has the potential to be the second best player in this draft. I don't get why he's taking this much shit from Cavs fans after playing 8-10% of the games he'll play in his career.

[ArchieBunker7]

you did notice that the two teams with the higher orb percentage was the ones that went to the finals?

Wait. What? You're joking right? Just stop with your BS. You are actually going to try and sell that crap as a valid observation? True or False, Tornicade, the two teams in the NBA Finals ranked 19th and 11th in ORB%? True or False, Tornicade, the two teams in the NBA Finals ranked 3rd and 4th in FG%? True or False, Tornicade, the two teams they beat ranked 24th and 30th in ORB%? True or False, Tornicade, those same two teams also ranked 1st and 5th in FG%?

So, of the those final 4 teams their average NBA rank in ORB% was 21st.

And those same 4 teams average NBA rank in FG% was 3rd.

Quit trying to spin this shit already. Enough. It's pretty simple and you're trying to twist words and convolute things to the point of incomprehension. Just stop with it.

First, it was I'm taking too small of a sample. Then I provide you with last year's entire season and I'm cherry picking one fluke year.

Conventional wisdom tells me very plainly that I'd rather have both a good shooting team and ORB team. It also tells me, if I was forced to choose, I would absolutely take the good shooting team.

[STAT]

Hate this pick. We should have drafted Kawhi! Or Klay! Or Faried!

Give it a fucking rest! Those three are more overrated on this site than AT&T park, the Jersey Shore, and anal sex combined!

Some of you act as if they're setting the basketball world on fire. Klay Thompson's 35 FG% is doing the exact opposite. And come on! You're a 6'7 SG, play some D! Kawhi is a good defensive player, more of a spot of shooter than anything else on offense. Can't create a damn thing for others, I mean TT has more assists than the guy. With his teammates, I'd think he would have the ability to tally up 1apg. Guess not. Wouldn't have been much of an upgrade from Gee. And speaking of shooting, his 3pt% has regressed since last season.

And then there's the RCF MVP, Kenneth Faried. He's having a great season. Averaging 3ppg and 3rpg more than Tristan with a better FG%. However he is older, and is one of the WORST pick and roll defenders in the game.

I'm sure we can all agree that the 2011 draft was terrible (so far). I honestly can't think of a worse one. Somehow people don't realize that TT still has the potential to be the second best player in this draft. I don't get why he's taking this much shit from Cavs fans after playing 8-10% of the games he'll play in his career.

This hasn't been talked about enough. Faried really struggled against the pick and roll last year and has continued to do so this year. Watching Faried, it looks as though he is unsure of how much to show on the pick and roll. He does not seem to have any feel as to how much space to give the ball handler and when he needs to switch back to his guy.

The numbers bear this out as well, albeit in a very small sample size. This season, opposing roll men are 7/10 from the field against Faried in P&R situations; whereas opposing roll men are 2/7 against Tristan in P&R situations.

[Jon]

So it essentially comes back to what Scholar said originally. If you're a good offensive team, then offensive rebounding means something. If not, then offensive rebounding is insignificant.

Nah, some players are clearly better offensive rebounders than others - and that's a bonus to any team; but a player who puts up big stats on a losing team always deserves some investigation.

A mistake being made in this thread is trying to correlate offensive rebounding directly to winning. I don't think anyone argued that offensive rebounding is the most important stat when it comes to winning - it's just one of many factors. So any sort of correlation would have to filter out the other factors. Crashing the offensive boards is hard work, why would anyone bother to do that if they could win by just making more shots than the other team?

When it comes to the NBA what you really want to know is what's important when the playoffs come around and everybody is giving effort and the defenses and game planning are making it very hard to do what you usually do to stomp lesser opponents.

[Jon]

Seldom, do they pick apart the weaknesses of our players. They do often ridicule his free throw form and delivery though.

Did you catch the Miami announcers reaming Dion for his defensive lapses?