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  1. #4006
    Valuable Trading Chip D-Wreck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    But there not. Here are there stats for 'close' shots.

    -----Pct Att / % Blcked
    TT 33% / 36%
    Zeller 43%/ 24%
    Samuel 26%/ 22%
    Andy 34%/ 10%

    Thats a 12% dif between TT and Zeller. Even though Zeller attemps 10% more such shots.
    "Inside" shots include "close" shots

    Jon's stats were correct

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  3. #4007
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    "Inside" shots include "close" shots
    Along with dunks and tip ins, which are both very difficult to contest.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    Along with dunks and tip ins, which are both very difficult to contest.
    Yeah? So? Maybe Zeller should try to dunk more.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    Yeah? So? Maybe Zeller should try to dunk more.
    No his fine, TT otoh should only attempt dunks.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    No his fine, TT otoh should only attempt dunks.
    He's not fine though, his % of shots blocked is still really bad

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    There's also inexplicable things like I absolutely saw Glen Davis stuff TT at the rim, yet there was no block credited either way. It was plain as day and makes me wonder how many other stats are flawed, and by how much, because of poor score keeping.

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  10. #4012
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    He's not fine though, his % of shots blocked is still really bad
    I would bet the league avg for these 'close' shots blocked to be around 20%.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    I would bet the league avg for these 'close' shots blocked to be around 20%.
    A quick look at the other teams on the site tell me that it is not par for the course to get 20% of your shots blocked. I also don't understand why you're so hell bent on separating out the dunks/tips from the close shots.

    By your logic, if a guy shot 38% from the field taking nothing but mid range jumpers, that'd be ok because that's about the league average for that spot.

    Tristan gets blocked too much, so does Zeller, so does Samardo, they all need to improve because right now they're not good.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    A quick look at the other teams on the site tell me that it is not par for the course to get 20% of your shots blocked. I also don't understand why you're so hell bent on separating out the dunks/tips from the close shots.
    No, thats what Jons' stats did, by only including 'inside' shots. If we include ALL shots (as well tips,dunks,etc) , then TT leads the league.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    I've seen Tristan play a couple of times.

    I've also seen other players play once or twice.

    Tristan gets blocked far too easily and often.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    No, thats what Jons' stats did, by only including 'inside' shots. If we include ALL shots (as well tips,dunks,etc) , then TT leads the league.
    You're not making a whole lot of sense right now, so I'm just gonna leave this be after I say this.

    The "inside" shots include "tips", "dunks" and "close" shots

    You were the one who kept referring back to their "close" shots


    Nobody is saying Tristan isnt an awful finisher, but so are all of our other bigs except Andy.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Wreck View Post
    You're not making a whole lot of sense right now, so I'm just gonna leave this be after I say this.

    The "inside" shots include "tips", "dunks" and "close" shots

    You were the one who kept referring back to their "close" shots


    Nobody is saying Tristan isnt an awful finisher, but so are all of our other bigs except Andy.
    There is something funny with 82games methodology. Tristan's overall percentage shots blocked is a whopping 20% vs Zeller total at 13%. Yet with inside shots they are close to the same despite Tristan having a worse percentage in each subcategory. This could be because Tristan tries to dunk more per their numbers but in addition, they state Tristan gets 20% of his jumpers block and that he shoots 37% of his shots as jumpers. That's odd right off the bat: I just don't see how a third of Tristan's shot could be considered jumpers and he gets 20% of those blocked?

    The smell test for me and my impression of both, the overall percentage fits better with what I actually see happening in the game. Data mining with sub-analyses can get you into trouble often and I think this is one of those cases
    Last edited by Pioneer10; 12-05-2012 at 12:17 AM.
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer10 View Post
    The smell test for me and my impression of both, the overall percentage fits better with what I actually see happening in the game. Data mining with sub-analyses can get you into trouble often and I think this is one of those cases
    Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

    None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

    None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.
    Just don't see it that way. The inside numbers and jumper percentages just don't make a lot of sense with Tristan: again there is no way he shoots over a third of his shots as his jumpers. The dataset is odd and just because it has continuity doesn't change that
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
    Michael Lewis


  20. #4020
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

    None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.
    Nor does the fact that the rest of the shit on this roster gets blocked a lot change the fact that Tristan, the young and supposedly springy PF and recent top 5 pick, gets blocked the most and at an alarmingly high rate. Even arduous statistical contortions fail to diminish that reality, never mind what happens when you actually just watch him play.

    It's obviously a problem for him. I fail to see what the references to the other players on this team adds to the discussion, particularly when so many of those other players would not be getting the minutes they're getting were they on good teams.

    Pretty much every post discussing the effect (getting blocked/stripped too much) has identified at least some of the causes (too much time spent gathering before his jump, bringing the ball too low, poor ball control while it's in his hands generally, exact predictability in his timing and method of finishing, including never trying to dunk one handed, lack of real explosiveness around the basket, lack of strength, etc...). This is no mysterious phenomenon that would necessitate delving into deep statistical analysis.

    Can he fix some of these things? I can't think of any player ever just willing himself into becoming a forceful and intimidating inside finisher... into becoming noticeably more explosive and powerful... so I'm not holding my breath for what I once hoped he would be when we drafted him. I've made this comparison before: Kevin Love and Blake Griffin posted extremely similar measurements and athletic testing results to each other, yet Griffin soars and finishes powerfully above the rim in grand fashion, while Love rarely looks like he can get both his feet off the floor at the same time and relies on his craftiness to finish inside. It would not be realistic to expect that, if he focused on it, Love could start finishing with the elevation and power of Griffin. Despite the very similar tests and measurements, they are just polar opposites athletically in how they are able to use their athleticism in basketball ways.

    Point is, Tristan is no athletic freak on the court, regardless of what Sports Science might say. He's just a standard NBA PF athletically, really. And as much as I'd love for him to suddenly learn how to jump higher and faster with the ball in his possession and have the coordination and strength to power it into a dunk, I just don't ever see that happening. Rather, he's going to just need to stop thinking that's who he is and work on other ways to score with craftiness and finesse.

    My overarching disappointment is that I don't want the Cavs to build around a crafty PF who finishes with finesse around the hoop, even if he does learn to do so, which is doubtful; I wanted an explosive brick shithouse in our front court finishing in opponents faces and tossing them a towel.

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