Tristan Thompson

[D-Wreck]

I would bet the league avg for these 'close' shots blocked to be around 20%.

A quick look at the other teams on the site tell me that it is not par for the course to get 20% of your shots blocked. I also don't understand why you're so hell bent on separating out the dunks/tips from the close shots.

By your logic, if a guy shot 38% from the field taking nothing but mid range jumpers, that'd be ok because that's about the league average for that spot.

Tristan gets blocked too much, so does Zeller, so does Samardo, they all need to improve because right now they're not good.

[mhi]

A quick look at the other teams on the site tell me that it is not par for the course to get 20% of your shots blocked. I also don't understand why you're so hell bent on separating out the dunks/tips from the close shots.

No, thats what Jons' stats did, by only including 'inside' shots. If we include ALL shots (as well tips,dunks,etc) , then TT leads the league.

[narbar32]

I've seen Tristan play a couple of times.

I've also seen other players play once or twice.

Tristan gets blocked far too easily and often.

[D-Wreck]

No, thats what Jons' stats did, by only including 'inside' shots. If we include ALL shots (as well tips,dunks,etc) , then TT leads the league.

You're not making a whole lot of sense right now, so I'm just gonna leave this be after I say this.

The "inside" shots include "tips", "dunks" and "close" shots

You were the one who kept referring back to their "close" shots


Nobody is saying Tristan isnt an awful finisher, but so are all of our other bigs except Andy.

[Pioneer10]

You're not making a whole lot of sense right now, so I'm just gonna leave this be after I say this.

The "inside" shots include "tips", "dunks" and "close" shots

You were the one who kept referring back to their "close" shots


Nobody is saying Tristan isnt an awful finisher, but so are all of our other bigs except Andy.

There is something funny with 82games methodology. Tristan's overall percentage shots blocked is a whopping 20% vs Zeller total at 13%. Yet with inside shots they are close to the same despite Tristan having a worse percentage in each subcategory. This could be because Tristan tries to dunk more per their numbers but in addition, they state Tristan gets 20% of his jumpers block and that he shoots 37% of his shots as jumpers. That's odd right off the bat: I just don't see how a third of Tristan's shot could be considered jumpers and he gets 20% of those blocked?

The smell test for me and my impression of both, the overall percentage fits better with what I actually see happening in the game. Data mining with sub-analyses can get you into trouble often and I think this is one of those cases

[Jon]

The smell test for me and my impression of both, the overall percentage fits better with what I actually see happening in the game. Data mining with sub-analyses can get you into trouble often and I think this is one of those cases

Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.

[Pioneer10]

Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.

Just don't see it that way. The inside numbers and jumper percentages just don't make a lot of sense with Tristan: again there is no way he shoots over a third of his shots as his jumpers. The dataset is odd and just because it has continuity doesn't change that

[narbar32]

Thompson's shot distribution is consistent with last season. What's giving you grief perhaps is that 82games lacks granularity on what they consider a "jumper". Any shot 3 feet or more from the rim, they likely consider a jumper. Unfortunately hoopdata doesn't break down the %blocked statistic by area, and 82games doesn't break down jumpers by distance.

None of that changes the fact that as a team everyone but Andy is getting their inside shots blocked way too much.

Nor does the fact that the rest of the shit on this roster gets blocked a lot change the fact that Tristan, the young and supposedly springy PF and recent top 5 pick, gets blocked the most and at an alarmingly high rate. Even arduous statistical contortions fail to diminish that reality, never mind what happens when you actually just watch him play.

It's obviously a problem for him. I fail to see what the references to the other players on this team adds to the discussion, particularly when so many of those other players would not be getting the minutes they're getting were they on good teams.

Pretty much every post discussing the effect (getting blocked/stripped too much) has identified at least some of the causes (too much time spent gathering before his jump, bringing the ball too low, poor ball control while it's in his hands generally, exact predictability in his timing and method of finishing, including never trying to dunk one handed, lack of real explosiveness around the basket, lack of strength, etc...). This is no mysterious phenomenon that would necessitate delving into deep statistical analysis.

Can he fix some of these things? I can't think of any player ever just willing himself into becoming a forceful and intimidating inside finisher... into becoming noticeably more explosive and powerful... so I'm not holding my breath for what I once hoped he would be when we drafted him. I've made this comparison before: Kevin Love and Blake Griffin posted extremely similar measurements and athletic testing results to each other, yet Griffin soars and finishes powerfully above the rim in grand fashion, while Love rarely looks like he can get both his feet off the floor at the same time and relies on his craftiness to finish inside. It would not be realistic to expect that, if he focused on it, Love could start finishing with the elevation and power of Griffin. Despite the very similar tests and measurements, they are just polar opposites athletically in how they are able to use their athleticism in basketball ways.

Point is, Tristan is no athletic freak on the court, regardless of what Sports Science might say. He's just a standard NBA PF athletically, really. And as much as I'd love for him to suddenly learn how to jump higher and faster with the ball in his possession and have the coordination and strength to power it into a dunk, I just don't ever see that happening. Rather, he's going to just need to stop thinking that's who he is and work on other ways to score with craftiness and finesse.

My overarching disappointment is that I don't want the Cavs to build around a crafty PF who finishes with finesse around the hoop, even if he does learn to do so, which is doubtful; I wanted an explosive brick shithouse in our front court finishing in opponents faces and tossing them a towel.

[Jon]

Just don't see it that way. The inside numbers and jumper percentages just don't make a lot of sense with Tristan: again there is no way he shoots over a third of his shots as his jumpers. The dataset is odd and just because it has continuity doesn't change that

They don't have to be "jumpers", they can be hook shots, finger rolls, heaves at the rim ... anything from ~3ft out.

Heck, let's go back to the Pistons game and Tristan's 13 field goal attempts. ESPN tracks where the shots were taken:

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400277966

Here's a list of the "jumpers" that Tristan took from 3ft and beyond: 6ft, 5ft, 6ft, 4ft, 6ft.

So that's a total of 5 "jumpers" (only one of them actually went in, btw) which works out to be 38% of his shot attempts.

If you don't believe they recorded the distances correctly, then go back and watch the game tape. *shrugs*

None of this changes the fact that everybody but Andy is getting their shots swatted at a disgusting rate when they attempt shots near the rim.

[Jon]

It's obviously a problem for him. I fail to see what the references to the other players on this team adds to the discussion, particularly when so many of those other players would not be getting the minutes they're getting were they on good teams.

Clearly, it's a team problem.

As for Tristan, there's a lot for him to work on and he can certainly improve in all areas of the game. I think he'll look more explosive & athletic too once they get done tinkering with his weight.

That doesn't mean he will, but it would be dumb to write him off at this point.

[Pioneer10]

They don't have to be "jumpers", they can be hook shots, finger rolls, heaves at the rim ... anything from ~3ft out.

Heck, let's go back to the Pistons game and Tristan's 13 field goal attempts. ESPN tracks where the shots were taken:

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400277966

Here's a list of the "jumpers" that Tristan took from 3ft and beyond: 6ft, 5ft, 6ft, 4ft, 6ft.

So that's a total of 5 "jumpers" (only one of them actually went in, btw) which works out to be 38% of his shot attempts.

If you don't believe they recorded the distances correctly, then go back and watch the game tape. *shrugs*

None of this changes the fact that everybody but Andy is getting their shots swatted at a disgusting rate when they attempt shots near the rim.

Again, I don't find your argument compelling once again for exactly these reasons. Shots are from 4-6ft from the rim are damn close to the basket particularly when you have guys with 7 foot wingspans! The idea we have to exclude these shots from being considered "inside" shots to make Tristan's Thompson's block% look less atrocious compared to other Cavaliers is IMO silly. Other guys may not be Blake Griffin like finishers but this sort of data mining ("arduous statiscal contortions" as Narbar phrased it) doesn't change the fact that Tristan gets his shots blocked at high percentage then anybody else on the team and is a terrible finisher all around.

4 foot is the restricted area arc: so those "jumpers" which are not "inside" shots came within the paint and don't point out that by stretching/jumping where the ball left the person.



FYI: I do watch the games (NBA league pass broadband) and that is exactly why I'm shrugging at your posts. I'm also officially done with this argument: feel free to get in the last post as you like to do always

[The Human Q-Tip]

Clearly, it's a team problem.

Sounds like a problem with decision-making and lack of interior passing rather than a problem with the shot/finish itself. Maybe the team just isn't that good at seeing an opportunity to cut to the basket without the ball for a dish, so guys are getting tunnel vision, going up, and getting blocked. Andy, on the other hand, knows how to move without the ball and so cuts for more uncontested/late contested buckets. So it's not as much an inability to finish as it is a mistaken attempt to finish when the defense isn't off balance.

[RTrees]

According to 82games, here's the % of the time our more egregious players get blocked on "inside" shots with fg% in ()'s:


Bigs:
Thompson: 21% (54.8)
Tyler: 19% (53.5)
Samuels: 18% (72.7)
Andy: 6% (63.4)

Smalls:
Sloan 44% (22.2)
Irving: 19% (59.6)
Pargo: 16% (46.9)
Waiters 16% (37.7)
Casspi 13% (50.0)

My conclusion is too big of a deal is being made of this. The real problem is we suck.

Don't forget your Byron Scott exception to this rule!!

[narbar32]

Clearly, it's a team problem.

As for Tristan, there's a lot for him to work on and he can certainly improve in all areas of the game. I think he'll look more explosive & athletic too once they get done tinkering with his weight.

That doesn't mean he will, but it would be dumb to write him off at this point.

About the team problem part, my point is that while it may be a problem common amongst the Cavs players, that has little bearing on whether it's a problem for Tristan. The offensive philosophy may have some effect, sure, but it's foolish to excuse Tristan's glaring tendency to get blocked based upon his teammates similar (though to lesser extents) deficiencies, especially given that his teammates are by and large not very good NBA players (aside from a couple).

Consider that marginal NBA players like CJ Miles or Casspi or Sloan may suck at shooting or finishing inside except for a hot streak here and there; that isn't comforting or a justifiable excuse for our most recent top 5 pick, Waiters, sucking at shooting or finishing inside. Like Tristan, I would like to be able to expect more out of him. For Dion, I'm still very hopeful, though. In regards to Tristan, I think I'm just dumb.

[Jon]

About the team problem part, my point is that while it may be a problem common amongst the Cavs players, that has little bearing on whether it's a problem for Tristan. The offensive philosophy may have some effect, sure, but it's foolish to excuse Tristan's glaring tendency to get blocked based upon his teammates similar (though to lesser extents) deficiencies, especially given that his teammates are by and large not very good NBA players (aside from a couple).

Consider that marginal NBA players like CJ Miles or Casspi or Sloan may suck at shooting or finishing inside except for a hot streak here and there; that isn't comforting or a justifiable excuse for our most recent top 5 pick, Waiters, sucking at shooting or finishing inside. Like Tristan, I would like to be able to expect more out of him. For Dion, I'm still very hopeful, though. In regards to Tristan, I think I'm just dumb.

It has a ton of bearing. In basketball, everything that goes on is always relative to the other 4 guys you're on the court with and the 5 guys trying to defend you.

And don't forget Kyrie is getting blocked at the rim a lot too.

Tristan may be the poster boy of the team for getting stuffed at the rim, but he also afforded the least space to work in.