Tristan Thompson

[chrisrich91]

You know, this is akin to how Serge developed too. He wasn't quite there yet in his second year either, but was still getting 10 and 7 in 27 minutes.

Serge Ibaka didn't have a consistent jumper at that point, but he had this form all along...something Tristan has never shown nor will he ever. There's the biggest flaw in the Serge comparison...he doesn't have the fluidity or natural basketball tendency that Serge has always had.

Even Kyrie knows it:



Seems funny, but it's true and it will severely limit his upside. I'm not confident it's something that can be fixed.

[Jon]

Yeah it seems like you're pretty much arguing just to argue, I've seen too many posts of yours that show you're not this dense.

Actually, I was attempting to encourage you to take your thoughts the next step.

[Jon]

Andy's % is down because he's being asked to stretch the floor more than he ever has. You know that. He's shooting jumpers at a higher rate than ever before, so it's bound to be down some.

otoh, Andy is a smart guy. If he could drive and dunk, you know he would.

If your answer is referring to our playmaking PG who is hurt.....

You're right....Andy was actually at 54% playing with Kyrie

Yeah, well, it's not like our offense is getting better with Pargo, Gibson, and Sloan driving the boat rather than Kyrie and Dion, but it wasn't all that good with them either.

Ryan Hollins is at nearly 60% with his FG% this season, and was at 64% with Boston last year, but was at 50% with the Cavs. It's not rocket science. It's just that this team makes it look like it is.

Create easy shots for your bigs and they will score.

[ArchieBunker7]

otoh, Andy is a smart guy. If he could drive and dunk, you know he would.

Andy is taking what the D gives him, and is doing a good job making them pay. In the past, if he wasn't able to drive and dunk, he was told to get rid of the ball. Now, as is well documented, he is being told to shoot the ball. There's really no two ways about it. It's been said by our coach, announcers, and players alike, and is obvious to anyone watching the games. The fact he is averaging 3 more shots per game more than last year and more than twice as many as his career average is not an accident.

Yeah, well, it's not like our offense is getting better with Pargo, Gibson, and Sloan driving the boat rather than Kyrie and Dion, but it wasn't all that good with them either.

Ryan Hollins is at nearly 60% with his FG% this season, and was at 64% with Boston last year, but was at 50% with the Cavs. It's not rocket science. It's just that this team makes it look like it is.

Create easy shots for your bigs and they will score.

And now we come full circle. Even with the complete abomination that TT is on offense, our first two starting 5's(pre KI injury, then pre Dion injury) were a combined +59 with a win% of 63%. A combined 1.13 ppm isn't too shabby, either. MOF, just a quick cherry picking of stats shows these (2) 5 man units score more ppm than the following teams: LAL, LAC, BKN, GSW, DEN, HOU, MIA, POR, SAS, MEM, OKC....and they also have all them beat in +/- as well. This is not a complete list. But, these are the only teams I looked up. I stopped because it seemed to be getting a bit redundant.

While you may not agree with the way our PG operates as a facilitator, there's no denying what he does is extremely effective. It shows in the ppm and our +/-(which, btw, I'm pretty sure the original starting 5 still leads the NBA in). They are doing this in spite of Tristan Thompson. Sure, defensively, he helps more than he hurts in most games, but that has little to do with our very high ppm.

And Ryan Hollins? Ok, Jon. Are you really citing examples of a guy's FG% who has averaged less than 2FGA/gm? That's illogical. 1 shot here or there makes an enormous difference.

[Jon]

Hey Joe, there are some stats you missed while slobbering over our starting unit's PPM #'s. They are .459, .439. and .386.

That's the eFG% for our #1 group, #2 group, and #3 group.

In fact the eFG% for the entire team nearly matches that of our #1 starting unit ... it's .459. Wow? What's up with that.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE3.HTM

Go compare that eFG% to other teams around the league, and understand it doesn't place us with the Thunder or the Heat ... but rather the Wizards and the Bobcats.

What seems to set us apart should come as no surprise. It's our offensive rebounding and our offensive rebounding %.

The Cavaliers are a terrible offensive team - no matter who's driving the boat, but when it comes to getting our misses back ... we're elite.

The thing is with jump shooters is that they only space the floor and open up your offense if the defense actually sees them as a threat. Andy (.377) and Tyler (.345) are both below 40%. That's not terrible for big men, but even a 38 year old slightly fossilized Rasheed Wallace can still top that thanks to his incredible 29% shooting from 3. lol

[ArchieBunker7]

Hey Joe, there are some stats you missed while slobbering over our starting unit's PPM #'s. They are .459, .439. and .386.

That's the eFG% for our #1 group, #2 group, and #3 group.

In fact the eFG% for the entire team nearly matches that of our #1 starting unit ... it's .459. Wow? What's up with that.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE3.HTM

Go compare that eFG% to other teams around the league, and understand it doesn't place us with the Thunder or the Heat ... but rather the Wizards and the Bobcats.

What seems to set us apart should come as no surprise. It's our offensive rebounding and our offensive rebounding %.

The Cavaliers are a terrible offensive team - no matter who's driving the boat, but when it comes to getting our misses back ... we're elite.

The thing is with jump shooters is that they only space the floor and open up your offense if the defense actually sees them as a threat. Andy (.377) and Tyler (.345) are both below 40%. That's not terrible for big men, but even a 38 year old slightly fossilized Rasheed Wallace can still top that thanks to his incredible 29% shooting from 3. lol

Thanks for wiping up my slobber, Jon, but I actually did see the numbers. Are you going to blame KI for TT and Dion missing more bunnies than they make?

There's a forest there through all those trees, Jon. Do you think it's a coincidence that the +/- and win% drop significantly when KI is the part that gets changed out? If it was just our offensive rebounding and OR% that sets us apart, then how come our +/- and win% drops so much without KI? Is it because of his offensive rebounding prowess? Our 2 great OR's have been here the whole season, with KI and without. Yet, the numbers of the starting 5 only dropped off the earth when KI went down. What a coincidence, huh, Jon?

The starting 5 could have been better when KI is driving them, but they are far from "terrible." The drool stats...ya know, ppm and +/- and win% all bear it out. So, instead of whining about how TT and Dion need to finish like they actually belong in the NBA, I'm just happy Andy's getting all those OR's(ok ok and TT and TZ too). Thankfully, we seem to maybe have brought in another guy who's pretty damn good capable at gathering up all those misses, too(Kevin Jones).

In the meantime, I'm gonna give the rook a bit more time to figure out his finishing when he gets back and I'm gonna have some faith that Big Z can get TT to at least be a step or two ahead of knucklehead on offense. And I'm gonna be hoping that we see more of the lineup of KI, Boobs, Gee, Andy, and TZ that has an efg% of 56%, a team high 1.36ppm, a +/- of +7, and a win% of 75%. Shit, in all honesty, that probably wouldn't be too bad of a starting 5 on a lot of nights.

[Len]

TT V HOWARD TONIGHT. Do work. I want to see TT body Howard up for some of the game.

But, Cavs will probably showcase Andy V. Howard for marketing reasons. But I am so excited for the game!

[Jon]

Thanks for wiping up my slobber, Jon,

Sure thing. That's why I'm here.

but I actually did see the numbers.

Wha? So you ignored them willfully? tsk

Are you going to blame KI for TT and Dion missing more bunnies than they make?

Well, as I've already said, dissecting our offense is better done in another thread, but Kyrie is certainly part of the problem. All the bigs on the Heat have fantastic inside scoring scoring numbers, and it's not because Joel Anthony and Udonis Haslem suddenly turned in to 27yr old Shaquille O'Neal.

And I'm gonna be hoping that we see more of the lineup of KI, Boobs, Gee, Andy, and TZ that has an efg% of 56%, a team high 1.36ppm, a +/- of +7, and a win% of 75%. Shit, in all honesty, that probably wouldn't be too bad of a starting 5 on a lot of nights.

Yes, it would be interesting to see what one of our better floor spacing groups could do with more than 22 minutes of playing time...

[Pioneer10]

Tristan's +/- of +1 was critical tonight against the Lakers

[3 Da Hard Way]

Avoids Dwight Howard , Gets blocked by the backboard

[ArchieBunker7]

Tristan's +/- of +1 was critical tonight against the Lakers

On a lighter +/- note....Antawn Jamison carried the Lake Show tonight with a +/- of +7 all the while amassing 9pts, 1 reb, and 2 stls in close to 30 mins. Nevermind he did it whilst shooting 3/10 and 1/6 on 3's.

But, really, my fav +/- of the night was Chris Duhon. He gets the TT award of the night....you get absolutely smoked by the opposing PG, play 33 mins and score 2 points on 1 of 2 shooting(Jon will be the first to tell you that's a helluva percentage for a PG). His 2 assists in 33 mins were impressive as well. Thgrough all of that impressive muck, you lead your team's starting unit with a -2.

+/- is cut and dry...black and white right???

[Douglar]

+/- is cut and dry...black and white right???

It says something about the player, the guys who he was on the floor with, and the guys that are playing when he sits.

What you are seeing here is that Duhon isn't good, but it's better to have a bad PG than to let Kobe run the show by himself

[ArchieBunker7]

It says something about the player, the guys who he was on the floor with, and the guys that are playing when he sits.

What you are seeing here is that Duhon isn't good, but it's better to have a bad PG than to let Kobe run the show by himself

I was really only busting Jon's balls...but I'm not sure that's what it is saying. It may be your interpretation of what it is saying, but I'd rather have a good PG playing with Kobe. A bad PG pretty much is telling Kobe to run the show himself, and 2 assists backs that up. Doesn't a bad PG just open the door for the the ball hoggin Kobe to comin trapsin on through?

[CavsFTW]

Tristan's +/- of +1 was critical tonight against the Lakers

Which is why Tristan's 1 point was the key +/- play of the game.

[Hydroponic3385]

I also saw TT play the most minutes (or close to it) with the least amount of other starters. He tends to start with the bench unit in the 2nd quarter. Meanwhile, Kyrie/Varejao/Gee tend to come in with at least one of each other (those 3 played together thru the 1st, all went to the bench when TT was in with 4 bench players to start the 2nd, and then they generally come in at very similar times in the middle of the 2nd quarter - similar with the 2nd half, except they get longer minutes and the bench players get shorter minutes). But this won't be reflected in the season stats for rotations that you refer to, SmknJoe, because Miles starting tonight will throw it all off.

Again, not a supporter of TT, or the +/- stat. But he's definitely been getting a lot of burn with the bench unit (at least the past couple weeks). Which you seem to disagree with.

And finally, Tristan sucked on offense yet again. At least looked solid with D and rebounding. But I'm ready to see Zeller get the opportunity to start.