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  1. #4141
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    otoh, bigs don't create their own shots. We rave about Andy's improved offense, but he hasn't shot this low from the field (49.2%) since '07/'08 when he shot umm 46.1%. I'm sure Tristan unlike Tyler just loves playing with his mask, right? But Tyler with his 4 season of NC polish and demonstrable skills ... is just at 43.9%.

    Jon Leuer shot 50% last year for the Bucks as a rook, he's at 33.3% this season. Samardo at 36% is setting a career low. Kevin Jones hot off destroying the D-league and 4 seasons in the NCAA ... is shooting a blistering 33%.

    If it's easy for a big man to score ... then why are none of our big men doing it?

    I think you know my answer.
    Because they're shooting jumpshots, instead of only taking point blank shots at the rim?

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by polklop1 View Post
    Because they're shooting jumpshots, instead of only taking point blank shots at the rim?
    And who in their right mind would be shooting 2pt jumpers at a 30+% rate when they could be taking point blank shots at a 50+% rate?

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    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    a) Not all our starting 5's are actually effective.
    b) While clearly Trsitan bnefits the most by %, and Andy the least ... you'd have to calculate how much that minute differential would really contribute to the +/- to determine what it really means.



    It's both here and there.

    JJ has played on teams with effective starting units and strong benches as well as weak starting units and weak benches - and through it all he's managed to drag them all down. So, he's a great example of what a (-) player will look like in various situations. There's very little that can hide or negate his negative effect, and it's very hard to keep him from dragging down even a solid unit. Drew Gooden is another such player we're all familiar with.

    They're the other side of the coin from Tristan. Semi-talented offensive players with decent rebounding skill who negate everything positive they do because they're clueless on team defense. Tristan is currently pretty clueless on offense, but his defense has been a factor this year and is making a difference.
    a)No, but the 2 most used ones were ahead in both +/- and Win%.
    b)Not only that, but factors such as opponents as well. I'm not digging that hard. My original point still stands and I'll just leave it at that.

    As far as JJ goes....well, ok. I was never attempting to refute how he and players like him can drag a +/- down. And seeing as how he will never play with the same guys as TT here, we will just have to speculate.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    And who in their right mind would be shooting 2pt jumpers at a 30+% rate when they could be taking point blank shots at a 50+% rate?
    Yeah it seems like you're pretty much arguing just to argue, I've seen too many posts of yours that show you're not this dense.

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    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    otoh, bigs don't create their own shots. We rave about Andy's improved offense, but he hasn't shot this low from the field (49.2%) since '07/'08 when he shot umm 46.1%. I'm sure Tristan unlike Tyler just loves playing with his mask, right? But Tyler with his 4 season of NC polish and demonstrable skills ... is just at 43.9%.

    Jon Leuer shot 50% last year for the Bucks as a rook, he's at 33.3% this season. Samardo at 36% is setting a career low. Kevin Jones hot off destroying the D-league and 4 seasons in the NCAA ... is shooting a blistering 33%.

    If it's easy for a big man to score ... then why are none of our big men doing it?

    I think you know my answer.
    Andy's % is down because he's being asked to stretch the floor more than he ever has. You know that. He's shooting jumpers at a higher rate than ever before, so it's bound to be down some.

    As far as the other guys....TT is actually up from a year ago. Tyler is in the first 1/4 of his rook year, soooo....let's be happy he's trending in the right direction. Certainly you wouldn't suggest someone else is to blame for his poor start at the FT line, would ya? Last 6 games he's shooting 48% from the field(including a 4/12 vs a tough Bulls D) and 89% from the FT line.

    Leuer, Sam, and Jones really haven't played enough or consistently enough to warrant any kind of stats correlation to anything.

    If your answer is referring to our playmaking PG who is hurt.....

    You're right....Andy was actually at 54% playing with Kyrie

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    Rising Back Up chrisrich91's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by rabman_gold View Post
    You know, this is akin to how Serge developed too. He wasn't quite there yet in his second year either, but was still getting 10 and 7 in 27 minutes.


    Serge Ibaka didn't have a consistent jumper at that point, but he had this form all along...something Tristan has never shown nor will he ever. There's the biggest flaw in the Serge comparison...he doesn't have the fluidity or natural basketball tendency that Serge has always had.

    Even Kyrie knows it:



    Seems funny, but it's true and it will severely limit his upside. I'm not confident it's something that can be fixed.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by polklop1 View Post
    Yeah it seems like you're pretty much arguing just to argue, I've seen too many posts of yours that show you're not this dense.
    Actually, I was attempting to encourage you to take your thoughts the next step.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    Andy's % is down because he's being asked to stretch the floor more than he ever has. You know that. He's shooting jumpers at a higher rate than ever before, so it's bound to be down some.
    otoh, Andy is a smart guy. If he could drive and dunk, you know he would.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    If your answer is referring to our playmaking PG who is hurt.....

    You're right....Andy was actually at 54% playing with Kyrie
    Yeah, well, it's not like our offense is getting better with Pargo, Gibson, and Sloan driving the boat rather than Kyrie and Dion, but it wasn't all that good with them either.

    Ryan Hollins is at nearly 60% with his FG% this season, and was at 64% with Boston last year, but was at 50% with the Cavs. It's not rocket science. It's just that this team makes it look like it is.

    Create easy shots for your bigs and they will score.

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    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    otoh, Andy is a smart guy. If he could drive and dunk, you know he would.
    Andy is taking what the D gives him, and is doing a good job making them pay. In the past, if he wasn't able to drive and dunk, he was told to get rid of the ball. Now, as is well documented, he is being told to shoot the ball. There's really no two ways about it. It's been said by our coach, announcers, and players alike, and is obvious to anyone watching the games. The fact he is averaging 3 more shots per game more than last year and more than twice as many as his career average is not an accident.

    Yeah, well, it's not like our offense is getting better with Pargo, Gibson, and Sloan driving the boat rather than Kyrie and Dion, but it wasn't all that good with them either.

    Ryan Hollins is at nearly 60% with his FG% this season, and was at 64% with Boston last year, but was at 50% with the Cavs. It's not rocket science. It's just that this team makes it look like it is.

    Create easy shots for your bigs and they will score.
    And now we come full circle. Even with the complete abomination that TT is on offense, our first two starting 5's(pre KI injury, then pre Dion injury) were a combined +59 with a win% of 63%. A combined 1.13 ppm isn't too shabby, either. MOF, just a quick cherry picking of stats shows these (2) 5 man units score more ppm than the following teams: LAL, LAC, BKN, GSW, DEN, HOU, MIA, POR, SAS, MEM, OKC....and they also have all them beat in +/- as well. This is not a complete list. But, these are the only teams I looked up. I stopped because it seemed to be getting a bit redundant.

    While you may not agree with the way our PG operates as a facilitator, there's no denying what he does is extremely effective. It shows in the ppm and our +/-(which, btw, I'm pretty sure the original starting 5 still leads the NBA in). They are doing this in spite of Tristan Thompson. Sure, defensively, he helps more than he hurts in most games, but that has little to do with our very high ppm.

    And Ryan Hollins? Ok, Jon. Are you really citing examples of a guy's FG% who has averaged less than 2FGA/gm? That's illogical. 1 shot here or there makes an enormous difference.
    Last edited by Giambiwannabe7; 12-11-2012 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Hey Joe, there are some stats you missed while slobbering over our starting unit's PPM #'s. They are .459, .439. and .386.

    That's the eFG% for our #1 group, #2 group, and #3 group.

    In fact the eFG% for the entire team nearly matches that of our #1 starting unit ... it's .459. Wow? What's up with that.

    http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE3.HTM

    Go compare that eFG% to other teams around the league, and understand it doesn't place us with the Thunder or the Heat ... but rather the Wizards and the Bobcats.

    What seems to set us apart should come as no surprise. It's our offensive rebounding and our offensive rebounding %.

    The Cavaliers are a terrible offensive team - no matter who's driving the boat, but when it comes to getting our misses back ... we're elite.

    The thing is with jump shooters is that they only space the floor and open up your offense if the defense actually sees them as a threat. Andy (.377) and Tyler (.345) are both below 40%. That's not terrible for big men, but even a 38 year old slightly fossilized Rasheed Wallace can still top that thanks to his incredible 29% shooting from 3. lol

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    All Star Giambiwannabe7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Hey Joe, there are some stats you missed while slobbering over our starting unit's PPM #'s. They are .459, .439. and .386.

    That's the eFG% for our #1 group, #2 group, and #3 group.

    In fact the eFG% for the entire team nearly matches that of our #1 starting unit ... it's .459. Wow? What's up with that.

    http://www.82games.com/1213/1213CLE3.HTM

    Go compare that eFG% to other teams around the league, and understand it doesn't place us with the Thunder or the Heat ... but rather the Wizards and the Bobcats.

    What seems to set us apart should come as no surprise. It's our offensive rebounding and our offensive rebounding %.

    The Cavaliers are a terrible offensive team - no matter who's driving the boat, but when it comes to getting our misses back ... we're elite.

    The thing is with jump shooters is that they only space the floor and open up your offense if the defense actually sees them as a threat. Andy (.377) and Tyler (.345) are both below 40%. That's not terrible for big men, but even a 38 year old slightly fossilized Rasheed Wallace can still top that thanks to his incredible 29% shooting from 3. lol
    Thanks for wiping up my slobber, Jon, but I actually did see the numbers. Are you going to blame KI for TT and Dion missing more bunnies than they make?

    There's a forest there through all those trees, Jon. Do you think it's a coincidence that the +/- and win% drop significantly when KI is the part that gets changed out? If it was just our offensive rebounding and OR% that sets us apart, then how come our +/- and win% drops so much without KI? Is it because of his offensive rebounding prowess? Our 2 great OR's have been here the whole season, with KI and without. Yet, the numbers of the starting 5 only dropped off the earth when KI went down. What a coincidence, huh, Jon?

    The starting 5 could have been better when KI is driving them, but they are far from "terrible." The drool stats...ya know, ppm and +/- and win% all bear it out. So, instead of whining about how TT and Dion need to finish like they actually belong in the NBA, I'm just happy Andy's getting all those OR's(ok ok and TT and TZ too). Thankfully, we seem to maybe have brought in another guy who's pretty damn good capable at gathering up all those misses, too(Kevin Jones).

    In the meantime, I'm gonna give the rook a bit more time to figure out his finishing when he gets back and I'm gonna have some faith that Big Z can get TT to at least be a step or two ahead of knucklehead on offense. And I'm gonna be hoping that we see more of the lineup of KI, Boobs, Gee, Andy, and TZ that has an efg% of 56%, a team high 1.36ppm, a +/- of +7, and a win% of 75%. Shit, in all honesty, that probably wouldn't be too bad of a starting 5 on a lot of nights.

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    Team Player Len's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    TT V HOWARD TONIGHT. Do work. I want to see TT body Howard up for some of the game.

    But, Cavs will probably showcase Andy V. Howard for marketing reasons. But I am so excited for the game!

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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    Thanks for wiping up my slobber, Jon,
    Sure thing. That's why I'm here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    but I actually did see the numbers.
    Wha? So you ignored them willfully? tsk

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    Are you going to blame KI for TT and Dion missing more bunnies than they make?
    Well, as I've already said, dissecting our offense is better done in another thread, but Kyrie is certainly part of the problem. All the bigs on the Heat have fantastic inside scoring scoring numbers, and it's not because Joel Anthony and Udonis Haslem suddenly turned in to 27yr old Shaquille O'Neal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    And I'm gonna be hoping that we see more of the lineup of KI, Boobs, Gee, Andy, and TZ that has an efg% of 56%, a team high 1.36ppm, a +/- of +7, and a win% of 75%. Shit, in all honesty, that probably wouldn't be too bad of a starting 5 on a lot of nights.
    Yes, it would be interesting to see what one of our better floor spacing groups could do with more than 22 minutes of playing time...

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    Send Sideshow to ASG Pioneer10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Tristan's +/- of +1 was critical tonight against the Lakers
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
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    Columbus Goat 3 Da Hard Way's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tristan Thompson

    Avoids Dwight Howard , Gets blocked by the backboard

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