Tristan Thompson

[ice cream man]

That play where he got blocked by the bottom of the backboard was discouraging considering he had a wide open reverse layup.

[ArchieBunker7]

Yes the +/- stat is cut and dry ... black and white as you say.

And yes, Jamison can have a positive effect on a game even when shooting like crap and barely playing defense by stretching the other team's D out to the 3pt line and giving Howard more space. And clearly a key to the Lakers' limited success has been to distribute the ball effectively such that Kobe doesn't feel like he has to hoist a ton of shots.

Sometimes these things indicate trends, sometimes they say more about the opponent, and sometimes it just tells you about the game that was played.

But dealing with subtlety clearly isn't your strong point...

No, Jon, it's just not cut and dry. It's dependant upon 4 other guys playing alongside of you, and in TT's case, carrying you. The KI effect proved it again last night. When KI is in there with TT, the +/- soars. When KI is out, it drops. This happened the first 10 games of the season and it happened again last night. As TZ starts eating into more of TT's minutes with that group, the numbers for TT will continue to drop.

Obviously, AJ helps space the floor for Dwight. But, it's more theory than substance in this game, as Dwight scored 13 of his 19 at the line. Guys were all over him every time he touched the ball. Even his measly 3 FG's were all contested. Jamison's +7 wasn't because of anything he and Dwight had going on. It was because he was in most of the second half as Kobe went berserk, making all kinds of crazy contested shots all over the court. Even with this theoretical spacing, Dwight was hounded all night. He never had any easy looks.

But, let's break it down...

1Q...they didn't even play together.
2Q...they play together for 8:36. Dwight scores 2 pts off a putback in a crowd and 2 pts of FT's. AJ scores 5. They end their shared court time at a -1.
3Q...they play together for 7:15. Dwight scores 2 pts in a crowd again and 2 more on FT's. AJ goes scoreless. They end their shared court time at a +6 as Kobe goes off and the Cavs look lethargic on offense.
4Q...they play together for 4:23. Dwight scores 2 pts of FT's and AJ scores 0 again. They end their shared court time at a -1.

So, really, Jon the +/- doesn't show a damn thing about what AJ and Dwight did playing off each other's spacing. Kobe goes off in the 3Q, the Cavs look inept on offense(5/25 FG's), and the Lakers close the gap to 6. This had very little to do with either AJ or Dwight. It was Kobe blocking KI and then going off. It was the Cavs looking awful on offense. From the 6:12 mark right after blocking KI, Kobe goes off(Cavs winning 57-45). From that point on he goes on to score 10 pts and cut the Cavs lead to 6(could have been 3 if not for a bomb by KI to close the 3Q).

[narbar32]

Yes the +/- stat is cut and dry ... black and white as you say.

And yes, Jamison can have a positive effect on a game even when shooting like crap and barely playing defense by stretching the other team's D out to the 3pt line and giving Howard more space. And clearly a key to the Lakers' limited success has been to distribute the ball effectively such that Kobe doesn't feel like he has to hoist a ton of shots.

Sometimes these things indicate trends, sometimes they say more about the opponent, and sometimes it just tells you about the game that was played.

But dealing with subtlety clearly isn't your strong point...

Jon:

It's beginning to look like Tristan and his +/- numbers take you to a dark place... a place I thought you had long since abandoned.

In response to both the discussion of Tristan's tendency to get blocked like he wants it and these +/- numbers, you've resorted to some of the "there's a lot more to it than what you see" type vague retorts that ostensibly preserve your argument without saying a whole lot about the specific situation itself.

So, assuming one is aware that basketball is a team sport, what is it about the team composition and/or philosophy that might excuse what appears to be just a much higher than usual tendency on the part of Tristan to get blocked when he tries to dunk with even a single defender, sometimes only as capable as Z-Bo or Baby Davis, as his obstacle? And, again assuming one can accept that many factors play into +/- numbers, what are the specific factors that make it so that Tristan's numbers in that statistic make him more valuable than he might appear to be for some fans?

You know I'm kind of busting balls a little bit and I often agree with your overall points. This Tristan thing, though... I'm having trouble with it.

[Huber.]

Fred really searching for that silver lining.

And AC needs to stop talking about Miles finding his spot on the team. Musta said it after every make.

Especially when tonight he will put up 2 points and shoot 1-8 and 0-4.

[Czvosec]

Why does he continue to refuse to use one hand? That's what I want to know. Someone tell this kid he needs to just do the Mikan drill every day at practice for the next year.

[Jon]

No, Jon, it's just not cut and dry. It's dependant upon 4 other guys playing alongside of you, and in TT's case, carrying you.

Sorry Joe, but did you miss the definition of the statistic somewhere?

Technically, it's dependent on the 10 guys on the court at any one time, the refs, the coaches, the strategies, the fans and everything else that can impact the game.

That's cut and dry.

Nobody ever said applying the stat to an individual was cut and dry.

[ArchieBunker7]

Sorry Joe, but did you miss the definition of the statistic somewhere?

Technically, it's dependent on the 10 guys on the court at any one time, the refs, the coaches, the strategies, the fans and everything else that can impact the game.

That's cut and dry.

Nobody ever said applying the stat to an individual was cut and dry.

Just stop, Jon. You can take all the jabs at me you want about drooling and not understanding what a stat is, cuz it don't mean a damn thing. This comes down to your insistance on pointing to TT's team leading +/- all the time as proof of something the rest of us just can't see with our eyes. Guess what? I'm the eye test guy. But, in tiring of hearing people attempting to justify TT's value as something more than what it is(yes, that means you, Jon), a result of playing with our starters who consistantly tear up other team's starting 5 in spite of TT, I turned to your precious stats. And, in doing so, it's become a refreshing way of refuting your persistant defense of this kid.

Technically, you've been pointing to TT's +/- for far too long, and now that it's being thrown back at you covered in dung, you're going to point to the other 9 guys??? How ironic. Refs? Strategies? Blah blah blah. That's cut and dry? Really? You've spent an inordinate amount of time pointing out TT's +/- and how it always seems to be leading the team. Now you're making excuses for what what was once the backbone to your defense as to the so called under appreciation/value of our starting PF. Have at it, Jon. It's become clear over the years you just can't admit when you're wrong, and this situation is no different.

As much as you have changed my perspective on certain things basketball, you have failed here to disprove with stats what our eyes see plain as day.

[EugB23]

When KI or Dion penetate into the lane, do you honestly think they want to kick the ball out to a wide-open TT at 15 feet? What's the point of it, he isn't going to shoot that shot anyway for whatever reason. At least TZ can, in theory, take and make that shot at a decent rate. Even AV is making that shot this season off of penetrate and kick outs...

[EugB23]

Well, our starting unit has been one of the best units in the entire NBA if you look at +/-. So you're a little off there.

Wow, one of the best starting units with a 5-17 record, who would have thought it....

[Jon]

You're flying off the handle again, Joe, creating strawman arguments. One game doesn't prove or disprove - anything - especially a game where Tristan was helping Andy deal with Dwight Howard, played 10 minutes with the bench, grabbed 10 boards, and still walked away with a +1.

Too bad. It was fun for a few pages.

[Thunder]

Tristan sucks, he'll be a good 4th big on a middle of the pack team, maybe even a good 3rd big. More like a 10-12 ppg/8 rpg type of guy, will be worth more if he could average a double double.

BTW, watch the first 15 seconds of the video in the article below and look at Hickson's monster 1 handed rebound...what small hands!? The kid would look great running the PnR with Irving/Waiters right now, and we gave him away for Casspi and a pick we may never get? -_-

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278023

[Hydroponic3385]

Wow, one of the best starting units with a 5-17 record, who would have thought it....

What are you implying? That legitimate stats referencing our starters are false? Or don't matter when talking about whether TT should be benched or not?

Yes, according to the +/- stat, our starting unit has been one of the best units in all of the NBA (and frankly, +/- actually IS a helpful statistic when looking at entire units). When a unit is near the top of that statistic when compared to every other unit in the league, I'd say it's a pretty successful lineup. The reason we're 5-17? Because of Kyrie/Dion's injuries, a very young team, and most importantly - one of the most horrendous benches in the league.

As I've already stated, I'm actually in full support of giving Zeller a shot at the starting spot. I agree, there's nice potential for him to stretch the floor more for our starting guards. But it's important to be cautious, and not assume that change will simply make things better. Shifting even more scoring from the bench to our starters will make our already terrible bench that much worse. And perhaps we'd find that TT's defense/rebounding was actually a decent fit with the starting lineup, and one of the reasons why that lineup has been so successful thus far this year.

[EugB23]

What are you implying? That legitimate stats referencing our starters are false? Or don't matter when talking about whether TT should be benched or not?

Yes, according to the +/- stat, our starting unit has been one of the best units in all of the NBA (and frankly, +/- actually IS a helpful statistic when looking at entire units). When a unit is near the top of that statistic when compared to every other unit in the league, I'd say it's a pretty successful lineup. The reason we're 5-17? Because of Kyrie/Dion's injuries, a very young team, and most importantly - one of the most horrendous benches in the league.

As I've already stated, I'm actually in full support of giving Zeller a shot at the starting spot. I agree, there's nice potential for him to stretch the floor more for our starting guards. But it's important to be cautious, and not assume that change will simply make things better. Shifting even more scoring from the bench to our starters will make our already terrible bench that much worse. And perhaps we'd find that TT's defense/rebounding was actually a decent fit with the starting lineup, and one of the reasons why that lineup has been so successful thus far this year.

How in the heck were we one of the best starting units when KI was out for 11 games and Dion has missed 4 or 5 and counting, I'm implying that BS is a heck of a coach if that statistic is indeed true but I was wondering if you could also post the statistics or where you found them because it's just a little bit hard to believe we have one of the best starting units through 22 games. That we could have had one of the best starting units in the NBA through 22 games with essentially Jeremy Pargo, AV, Boobie Gibson, TT and Gee is amazing, if not a little bit hard to believe....

[Hydroponic3385]

How in the heck were we one of the best starting units when KI was out for 11 games and Dion has missed 4 or 5 and counting, I'm implying that BS is a heck of a coach if that statistic is indeed true but I was wondering if you could also post the statistics or where you found them because it's just a little bit hard to believe we have one of the best starting units through 22 games. That we could have had one of the best starting units in the NBA through 22 games with essentially Jeremy Pargo, AV, Boobie Gibson, TT and Gee is amazing, if not a little bit hard to believe....

I'm talking about our starting unit when healthy (Kyrie, Dion, Gee, TT, AV). I don't have a link to the statistics, but many people referenced this (from various websites like 82games.com) before Kyrie was injured.

[B3team]

Tristan sucks, he'll be a good 4th big on a middle of the pack team, maybe even a good 3rd big. More like a 10-12 ppg/8 rpg type of guy, will be worth more if he could average a double double.

BTW, watch the first 15 seconds of the video in the article below and look at Hickson's monster 1 handed rebound...what small hands!? The kid would look great running the PnR with Irving/Waiters right now, and we gave him away for Casspi and a pick we may never get? -_-

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278023

Hickson wouldn't have played for us for what he makes now. You have to be a little patient, one of the Cav's best assets is financial flexibility. In the next couple seasons, teams are going to be dumping talent to save money. Cav's should be able to pick up quality players in a market where they are the only ones with money to spend.