Tristan Thompson

[ArchieBunker7]

You're flying off the handle again, Joe, creating strawman arguments. One game doesn't prove or disprove - anything - especially a game where Tristan was helping Andy deal with Dwight Howard, played 10 minutes with the bench, grabbed 10 boards, and still walked away with a +1.

Too bad. It was fun for a few pages.

Who was citing just 1 game? Did you even watch the game? Do you actually watch any of the games? I'm not creating anything, just having a blast pointing out your flawed sense of reasoning that somehow TT's inflated +/- correlates to his value. It just doesn't. But, getting to disprove your nonsense is gratifying.

Strawman. Yes. One game. Yes. +1. Yes. K. Got it.

Ya know what was great about this game? Watching how many times Andy boxes out Dwight Howard so TT can get a board. Awesome stuff. I counted 4 times. I already said TT's D was pretty good, but again, not much diff than TZ. I loved watching TZ take DH on by himself almost all game when they were matched up.

So, after watching this again, let's do a fact check, Jon....

You said TT played 10 mins with the bench. Fact: TT played 2:43 with 0 starters(2Q...got a -4)
TT played 3:39 with 1 starter(2Q and 4Q...combined 0+/-)
TT played 4:19 with 2 starters(4Q...+1)
TT played 2:28 with 3 starters(4Q...0)
-He played 6:22 with either 0 or 1 other starter on the floor with him(-4)
-He played 6:47 with either 2 or 3 other starters on the floor with him.(+1)
-He played 20:27 with the starting unit(+4).
-He played a total of 27:14 where there were a majority of starters on the floor.
-He played a total of 6:22 where there was a majority of bench players on the floor.

You said he contributed help D on Dwight with Andy. Yes he did. Twice. The exact same amount as Gee(who also blocked a Dwight shot down low). He also helped TZ on Dwight. Twice. He guarded Dwight alone twice all game...in the 1Q. He fouled him once and caused a miss another time. Dwight was either individually covered by TZ or AV the rest of the game, or given help from other players.

This game was just a microcosm of the success TT enjoyed(in +/-) playing with the first team that he enjoyed the first 10 games when KI was here. The biggest +/- unit of the game was, yep you guessed it, the first unit at the end of the 2Q(+9). From the 5:54 mark on, we got Casspi out and put Gee back in and we jumped all over them. TT's contribution? 1 defensive rebound on Jordan Hill. He did little else at all. Showed a little energy. KI accounted for 14 of 18 pts by scoring or assist. That's over 3ppm(yep...I'm drooling again damnit).

You pull examples of guys who take 1 shot per game(Joel Anthony) as some sort of example of how MIA has great playmaking to contribute to their bigs great scoring %, but now cite this as only one game. How ironic. Funny thing is, this trend of carrying TT and inflating his +/- has been going on for a while now...not just one game. You're just a tad tardy in identifying it. Don't worry, we'll continue to track this, and you can continue twisting it better than that sweet spinning jumper KI started the game with last night...at least until TT gets yanked from the starting 5.

[Jon]

A quick check of Portland's top two lineups (one with Hickson and the other starters, and the other with Leonard instead of Hickson) shows that little has changed:

Portland is -11 with a 31.2 Win% with Hickson in 332 minutes, and they're +10 with a 69.2 Win% with Leonard in 78 minutes.

The Hickson group's offensive eFG% is .003 higher, but they give up .051 more on defense.

[Jon]

Don't worry, we'll continue to track this, and you can continue twisting it better than that sweet spinning jumper KI started the game with last night...at least until TT gets yanked from the starting 5.

Why would that stop you? Heck, why haven't you gotten started now?

TZ would replace him, right?

How did TZ do when he was in the game with the starters or the majority of starters or however it is you care to quantify this?

It amazes me the things you leave out ... but just like when you cherry picked our points per possession and ignored our eFG% and ORB% - I imagine you're fully aware. Right?

Of course it's just one game, right?

Unfortunately, Tyler has played only 10 minutes with our preferred starters ... and just 10 minutes with last nights starters (minus Thompson in both cases). I'm sure you know that too, right? And of course you know those 20 minutes whether taken separate or combined are not very pretty.

Clearly we need more minutes to draw any conclusions about how Tyler would do in the starting group, but your selective statistical presentation continues to astound ... and then you accuse me of "twisting" things.

lol

[Pioneer10]

Anyway Jon and SmknJoe could take this particular line of arguments to pm's? Not sure anyone is following what you guys are arguing about any longer and it's starting to take over the thread in a negative way, at least IMHO.

[ArchieBunker7]

Anyway Jon and SmknJoe could take this particular line of arguments to pm's? Not sure anyone is following what you guys are arguing about any longer and it's starting to take over the thread in a negative way, at least IMHO.

Fair enough and I tend to agree with you. I actually have all the numbers Jon is whining about but I was trying to avoid just what you brought up.

Sorry to everyone for this getting out of hand.

Either way, I thought tonight's +/- were much more indicative of what was actually going on. The vast majority of the team was ass wipe. TT was doing what he should(yes, he still blew and took some easy shots but that wasn't what killed us) tonight, but the rest of the team was atrocious.

Anyways...back to TT...apologies again

[BimboColesHair]

I've said this enough, but my feelings still remain, he is not as terrible as people here make him out to be. Yes, he is bad on offense, but that's not the only side of the ball you play on. His rebounding, especially defensively, is much better, he blocks out better, and he just looks better on defense this year all around. He still gets young guy bullshit calls on him, but he is still a solid post defender. Offensively, well, I pray he visits Moron Mountain this off season and gets some help from the Monstars cause dude has a long way to go.

[Goldin Brown]

I think people are just incredibly impatient. If the kid is not good immediately, then there is absolutely no hope for him whatsoever, right?

[Birdy89]

He has had professional coaching for over a year now (with a full off-season) and potentially looks more woeful on offense now than ever.

How is that possible?

He brings a Rodman/Wallace level of offensive skill to the game without the Rodman/Wallace level of defense/rebounding.

If you are going to be a pathetic on offense as he is, the other side of the ball has to be far better than just "good/above average" to keep you on the floor to make up for hte fact he teammates are stuck playing 4 vs. 5 on offense.

It is not fair to anyone involved that they are forced to carry his sad ass the way they do because he refuses to put in the effort on that side of the ball to improve.

If he has been putting in the effort, then there really is no hope for the kid because he looks totally lost out there and it isn't working.

Either way, it is not a good sign for this team.

[Goldin Brown]

He has had professional coaching for over a year now (with a full off-season) and potentially looks more woeful on offense now than ever.

That's not true, he looked absolutely clueless on offense in his rookie season. I've seen improvement from him on that side of the ball, I still think he has a chance to make something of himself. Dude is a project, people need to realize this. If he was on a good team he would be playing limited minutes and just asked to defend and rebound. Because he is on a young rebuilding team he is getting heavy minutes and is trying to work on his game during actual games, he's obviously going to struggle for a while.

[Jon]

He brings a Rodman/Wallace level of offensive skill to the game without the Rodman/Wallace level of defense/rebounding.

Keep in mind, nether Rodman nor Wallace were in the NBA at Tristan's age, and neither of them showed what they would become until much later.

Tristan is playing more minutes this season, but his usage rate is much lower. In the past 3 games he's attempted 13 shots while grabbing 10 offensive rebounds. So subtract the putback attempts, and that doesn't leave many actual scoring chances. On top of that he's been much more willing to pass the ball. In other words, he's not getting much of a chance to improve his game and learn on the job this season. Rather limits him to practices on days off, and whatever individual sessions he can schedule with the coaches. If someone would actually pressure him for his minutes, it might do him a world of good to not go to the bench, but go to the NBADL for a couple of weeks where he might get the opportunity to work on his offense as an actual option in an offense.

What you need to ask yourself is that when you draft a big with only 1yr of NCAA experience - that you knew going in was going to be a project - how long do you wait on him?

+/- .vs. Pacers on back to back:

Tristan: -2
Tyler: -14
Kyrie: -20
Tristan playing without Kyrie: +5

But hey, let's not draw conclusions based on one game.

[MYoung23]

That's not true, he looked absolutely clueless on offense in his rookie season. I've seen improvement from him on that side of the ball, I still think he has a chance to make something of himself. Dude is a project, people need to realize this. If he was on a good team he would be playing limited minutes and just asked to defend and rebound. Because he is on a young rebuilding team he is getting heavy minutes and is trying to work on his game during actual games, he's obviously going to struggle for a while.

Improvement in what.

[Jack Brickman]

He has had professional coaching for over a year now (with a full off-season) and potentially looks more woeful on offense now than ever.

How is that possible?

He brings a Rodman/Wallace level of offensive skill to the game without the Rodman/Wallace level of defense/rebounding.

Yes, because Rodman and Wallace came into the league as all-world defenders. Please.

[narbar32]

I've said this enough, but my feelings still remain, he is not as terrible as people here make him out to be. Yes, he is bad on offense, but that's not the only side of the ball you play on. His rebounding, especially defensively, is much better, he blocks out better, and he just looks better on defense this year all around. He still gets young guy bullshit calls on him, but he is still a solid post defender. Offensively, well, I pray he visits Moron Mountain this off season and gets some help from the Monstars cause dude has a long way to go.

Your description after the statement in bold seems fairly accurate as to what people here make him out to be, for the most part.

He's a big enough body who provides solid, though certainly not yet stellar, defense and rebounding with little to offer offensively, such general lack of offensive skill being compounded by his weakness in doing the one thing that young, athletic, offensively raw/unskilled bigs are often able to do effectively on offense -- that is, successfully performing the "slam dunk shot" when finding themselves at the rim with possession and congestion.

Maybe that doesn't necessarily warrant the degree of disappointment in his ability/value/development thus far that often gets conveyed around here (certainly including myself in that), but I don't think it warrants any confident projections of him being some major piece of a championship contender eventually, either, especially if such talk is based upon imputing additions and repairs to his game that can only be discussed because of his youth.

And that's the goal that forms the basis of any of these discussions, right... a Title in Cleveland.

[Tornicade]

Your description after the statement in bold seems fairly accurate as to what people here make him out to be, for the most part.

He's a big enough body who provides solid, though certainly not yet stellar, defense and rebounding with little to offer offensively, such general lack of offensive skill being compounded by his weakness in doing the one thing that young, athletic, offensively raw/unskilled bigs are often able to do effectively on offense -- that is, successfully performing the "slam dunk shot" when finding themselves at the rim with possession and congestion.

Maybe that doesn't necessarily warrant the degree of disappointment in his ability/value/development thus far that often gets conveyed around here (certainly including myself in that), but I don't think it warrants any confident projections of him being some major piece of a championship contender eventually, either, especially if such talk is based upon imputing additions and repairs to his game that can only be discussed because of his youth.

And that's the goal that forms the basis of any of these discussions, right... a Title in Cleveland.

perhaps it would do some fans well to focus less on a title and more on the team being respectable again.

[Jack Brickman]

perhaps it would do some fans well to focus less on a title and more on the team being respectable again.

Yeah, some people forget that you have to walk before you can run. This team is still crawling, but we're crawling hard.