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  1. #1096
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It's not in Jorah's nature to do anything to threaten Daenerys. If anything, he is going to try to win her back IMO.
    That's probably the case, but the spurned lover is often the most dangerous person to the one who spurned them.

  2. #1097
    Formerly known as Talm MalTalm's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Not going to quote you, Malt, since it would just be a giant black wall, but nice post.

    One thing...if Aegon is indeed a Blackfyre, wouldn't the line about the male line dying out be inaccurate? I agree that the wording there is tricky, tough. Then again, the same could be said for dozens of Martin's lines, and not all of them mean something.

    Like Chris, I don't think I ever even gave a second thought to that "some in blood" line. That's probably the most compelling case for the Blackfyre theory that I've read yet (and I'm actually surprised this is the first time I've read it). As far as the question about Griff knowing, well, why would they tell him? Connington was totally gaygar for Rhaegar, and it stands to reckon that he might not have shit all over his honor and faked his death for some random Blackfyre kid.

    Perhaps the real question is why, if Aegon is indeed a Blackfyre, the people behind him would be pushing him to ally himself with Daenerys. As Malt mentioned, the Blackfyres were never on the best of terms with the Targs, so why make the alliance now? Obviously they never ended up making it to Mereen to actually go through with it, but I don't think anyone here can question that that was their plan. None of the viewpoints we see throughout Dance point to anything other than an Aegon/Dany marriage/alliance being the plan of Connington and his merry band.

    This is further complicated by the whole Illyrio/Serra theory. If Illyrio is fulfilling his dead wife's dream of putting a Blackfyre on the throne, why would he want to disguise the boy as a Targaryen?
    Yeah, I'm always uncertain what counts as a spoiler and what doesn't. But going a bit deeper:

    The male line did die out. Illyrio isn't a Blackfyre himself, but his wife was. The male line only refers specifically to children of the other male children, not the children of females of the line. To that end, it's odd Martin made a point to say specifically the male line died out, not the Blackfyre line as a whole.

    The Daenerys part of the equation is a difficult one. My first thought is, Westeros is a kingdom, and as such Aegon would become the accepted ruler, with Daenerys as his queen. Certainly allying your future heir with the most powerful weapons in the world is a sound way to make a strong claim to the throne. I've always found it interesting that Varys was more than willing to kill Dany, and it's interesting that its often overlooked. Here's kind of how I see things unfolding:

    Illyrio and Varys have been secretly raising and educating the next heir to the throne in Aegon. They've been doing this for at least 17 years in secret, and have gone to incredible lengths to keep his existence a secret. Meanwhile, Viserys and Dany were paraded about by Illyrio publicly. He set up a plan to get an evil and twisted Viserys an army, and gave a scared and weak Dany dragon eggs for her wedding. Obviously, these were lavish signs of fealty, but news of Dany's wedding and of Viserys claim to the throne made their way to King's Landing. With a king as hellbent as Robert was to kill off all the Targaryens, I believe Viserys and Dany were very welcome distractions to keep the king focused on one problem, and completely unaware of Aegon's possible existence.

    When Robert orders the murder of Dany and asks Varys to send an assassin, he does so. By all indication, this would have been successful had Jorah not changed his allegiances at the last minute. It seems that Dany's death, at least at that point, would not have disturbed Varys endgame.

    Dany goes on to hatch the dragons, raise an army, and start conquering the slave cities. Since the hatching of the dragons, Illyrio has tried (unsuccessfully) to reign Dany in on two occasions and bring her back into the fold. I think Dany is a risk to ruin their plan, and they desire to use her power rather than work against it.


    The Blackfyre claim to the throne was established on the belief that Daeron II wasn't the rightful heir and trueborn son of king Aegon IV, but rather a child fathered illegitimately by his uncle (sound familiar?). Instead, Daemon Blackfyre believed he was the only trueborn son of Aegon IV, and attempted to overthrow the impostor. In the Blackfyre's eyes, restoring a Blackfyre to the throne would be restoring the rightful Targaryen line to rule. Finally, the real Aegon was the son of Rhaegar and Elia of Dorne, so just his name is enough to raise a massive army: The Martells and the Tyrells would rally their armies around him. The Blackfyre name has nothing at its disposal besides the Golden Company, and 4 failed rebellions have shown that is not enough. This may be Varys' plan to get a Blackfyre finally on the throne.

    If this is how it all plays out, it will be curious to see if either Aegon or the reader are ever made directly aware of it. It will also be interesting to see if he ends up working alongside Dany, though as she was warned to fear the mummer's dragon, I doubt she'll be eager to join his cause. Finally, I'm curious how Jon plays into all of this, as ultimately he has the strongest "Targaryen" claim to the throne. (If you except the R+L=J theory)

    Part of me wonders if the wall in the North is going to fall soon, and the rest of this will be rendered moot. Obviously Westeros has bigger problems than who gets to sit on the Iron Throne, they just don't know it yet.
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Jack, great discussion points.

    My favorite theory, and one that I believe, is Bran eating the paste that contains remnants of a sacrificed Jojen. I'm on board with the idea of Bran becoming an antagonist and using his current/future powers for evil. i.e. controlling the Others and using them against Westeros. This might not be his initial intent, but I think the magic will overwhelm him and he'll become the Annakin of ASOIAF when his greenseeing powers become fully realized.

    One of the bits that reinforces this idea is his reaction to eating the paste. He starts off thinking it looks and tastes foul, but the more he eats he finds himself liking the paste and even describes it as sweet. If the paste is indeed Jojen this could be foreshadowing his path towards evil. Maybe I just like dark tales and I'm being overly optimistic in that sense but I really like the potential of that twist.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    If this is how it all plays out, it will be curious to see if either Aegon or the reader are ever made directly aware of it. It will also be interesting to see if he ends up working alongside Dany, though as she was warned to fear the mummer's dragon, I doubt she'll be eager to join his cause. Finally, I'm curious how Jon plays into all of this, as ultimately he has the strongest "Targaryen" claim to the throne. (If you except the R+L=J theory)
    She wasn't warned to fear the mummer's dragon, but rather not to trust him. And I'm not sure Quaithe's motivations are clear, as she also warned Dany not to trust Quentyn, and we know that his motivations were pure based on his POV chapters.

    Here's the exact quote, btw:

    "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.
    Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sunís son and the mummerís dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

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  7. #1100
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Yeah, those fucking prophecies and shit are like traversing a maze.

    Kraken and Dark Flame = Victarion and Moqorro I assume. Victarion will serve a means to an end, I think. Smashing the Volantene fleet and then he will be killed. Moqorro is a wild card.

    Lion= Tyrion. He'll be an ally of Daenerys. Almost guaranteed. The only question is how will Tyrion and the Second Sons convince Dany to accept them? After all, the Second Sons have switched sides in the war about eighteen times.

    Griffin= Griff and Young Griff, I assume ... although they're already in Westeros.

    Sun's son= Quentyn of course, which to this day I still have no idea what purpose he served. I liked his character, he was pure of heart and had noble intentions. Unsurprising he ended up the way he did, it's kind of frustrating. I think Martin gets off on that stuff and just wanted another good guy to toast.

    These are only a few of the variables in Daenerys' plot line, that's the scary part. There are literally hundreds of ways the final two books could play out, and Daenerys' storyline has become super intriguing to me which is weird since everybody said it was boring as fuck in ADWD. I really have NO idea what is going to happen next. I feel like that is one of the best praises I could give GRRM.

  8. #1101
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    All right...I'm ditching the spoiler tags in this post because I'm sick of all the black boxes.

    IF YOU HAVEN'T READ A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, SKIP THE REST OF THIS POST.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Kraken and Dark Flame = Victarion and Moqorro I assume. Victarion will serve a means to an end, I think. Smashing the Volantene fleet and then he will be killed. Moqorro is a wild card.
    I think Victarion will serve more than that. He's basically bringing Dany the fleet that she needs to make her return to Westeros. Whether he lives or dies, the mere fact that he's bringing Dany the ships to bring her home has huge implications on the final two books in the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Lion= Tyrion. He'll be an ally of Daenerys. Almost guaranteed. The only question is how will Tyrion and the Second Sons convince Dany to accept them? After all, the Second Sons have switched sides in the war about eighteen times.
    Good question, especially since Brown Ben and Dany didn't exactly part on the best of terms in Dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Griffin= Griff and Young Griff, I assume ... although they're already in Westeros.
    Connington is the Griffin. I'm left to assume that Aegon is the "mummer's dragon." The question is whether or not that term refers to the theory that he's a fake dragon or if it was used because he's ultimately being controlled by Varys (a literal mummer).

    As far as them being in Westeros now, I think what that implies is that prophesies are not gospel. When Quaithe foretold of all of those people coming to Dany, the Griffin and the Mummer's Dragon were very much still en route to Dany. However, Tyrion's conversation with Aegon changed things, leading the Golden Company to go straight to Westeros rather than to Mereen and Dany. So prophesies can certainly be changed (which makes sense...what's the point of seeing the future if you can't change it?). Whether or not this is important in later books is in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Sun's son= Quentyn of course, which to this day I still have no idea what purpose he served. I liked his character, he was pure of heart and had noble intentions. Unsurprising he ended up the way he did, it's kind of frustrating. I think Martin gets off on that stuff and just wanted another good guy to toast.
    Whether or not Quentyn himself was important, his death served several purposes for the plot. He freed Dany's dragons (thus sparing them from any ill deeds by Hizdahr), potentially broke the alliance between Dorne and Dany, gave Barristan two moles to send into the entrenched camp to save Dany's hostages, and also paved the way for Barristan to make a deal with the Tattered Prince to help win the battle for Mereen. If nothing else, Quentyn was a plot device whose death helped to push everything else into motion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    These are only a few of the variables in Daenerys' plot line, that's the scary part. There are literally hundreds of ways the final two books could play out, and Daenerys' storyline has become super intriguing to me which is weird since everybody said it was boring as fuck in ADWD. I really have NO idea what is going to happen next. I feel like that is one of the best praises I could give GRRM.
    I did find Dany's story to be pretty boring in Dance. The Mereen story in general didn't really pick up until Dany was removed from the city, which led to Barristan taking over and getting shit done. Sadly, the book ended shortly after.

    END SPOILERS

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  10. #1102
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    That's fine with me.

    When shit finally happens, it is a lot more exciting when it has been built up the way it was in ADWD. I don't want Martin to rush anything. I do want him to finish the story in the next 2200 pages/2 novels that he has planned and not prolong it to 8 books or something, and I think that is very doable. I think AFFC/ADWD set up the endgame for the series and the next two books should be nonstop ASOS-type of action.

    We already know that two HUGE plot lines (Battle in the Snow and Battle @ Meereen) will be solved in the first few hundred pages of TWOW.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    That's fine with me.

    When shit finally happens, it is a lot more exciting when it has been built up the way it was in ADWD. I don't want Martin to rush anything. I do want him to finish the story in the next 2200 pages/2 novels that he has planned and not prolong it to 8 books or something, and I think that is very doable. I think AFFC/ADWD set up the endgame for the series and the next two books should be nonstop ASOS-type of action.

    We already know that two HUGE plot lines (Battle in the Snow and Battle @ Meereen) will be solved in the first few hundred pages of TWOW.
    I would also love it if Martin was able to finish the series in two books, but I have my doubts. The man is wordy, and this wouldn't be the first time he waffled on the book count in the series. I think eight or nine books is more realistic than seven given all the shit that still has to go down. After all, as you said, the first few hundred pages of Winds will be devoted to wrapping up the major cliff-hangers from Dance (Winterfell, Mereen, and Cercei's trial).

    That, however, isn't including the other major plot lines and events (that we know of), like the siege of Storm's End, Dany's presumed trip back to Westeros, Sam at the Citadel (which was completely ignored in Dance), Bran learning from Bloodraven (still not sure where that's going), the journey north to the Land of Always Winter (Martin said the series would take us there at some point), Jon Snow's presumed resurrection, whatever the fuck Dorne is eventually going to do, the Iron Isles' war in the Reach, wherever Arya ends up, and the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

    Quite simply, there's still a lot of shit to wrap up, and nothing in Dance gave me the impression that we were anywhere close to the end. Hell, the series mantra has been "winter is coming," but it took five fucking books for it to finally get here. I think Martin finishing the series in three books is optimistic at this point. All I really want is for him to finish it before he dies. If he does that, mission accomplished.

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    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Agreed on your last point, but I maintain my stance that we're fucked if it takes more than 2 books because we won't see ADOS until 2020 at the earliest IMO. Martin will be dangerously old at that point.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Agreed on your last point, but I maintain my stance that we're fucked if it takes more than 2 books because we won't see ADOS until 2020 at the earliest IMO. Martin will be dangerously old at that point.
    I wouldn't say dangerously old. He'd only be 72. That's not too dangerous by modern standards, especially if you're rich like Martin is.

    Still, best not to take chances. Don't want this to end up being another Wheel of Time.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    I wouldn't say dangerously old. He'd only be 72. That's not too dangerous by modern standards, especially if you're rich like Martin is.

    Still, best not to take chances. Don't want this to end up being another Wheel of Time.
    Well, the dude is fat as hell. Once he hits 70 I feel like he could croak any day. Not to be morbid, I mean there are more important things in life than some guy finishing a book series, but let's face it: it's the guys life work, it's his legacy. No matter what else he has written, he will be remembered for A Song of Ice and Fire and it could be for a long, long, long time to come if he ends it as strong as he began it. In that sense, I am rooting for him to finish it, just as much as I want him to finish it so I can read the damn thing.

    I can't think of a better story that I've heard of. To never know how it ends would be painful.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Well, the dude is fat as hell. Once he hits 70 I feel like he could croak any day. Not to be morbid, I mean there are more important things in life than some guy finishing a book series, but let's face it: it's the guys life work, it's his legacy. No matter what else he has written, he will be remembered for A Song of Ice and Fire and it could be for a long, long, long time to come if he ends it as strong as he began it. In that sense, I am rooting for him to finish it, just as much as I want him to finish it so I can read the damn thing.

    I can't think of a better story that I've heard of. To never know how it ends would be painful.
    Don't get me wrong, I agree. Whenever I think about the series I'm afraid I'll never get to read the end. Still, not much we can do about it.

    On the plus side, Martin is obviously aware of what's at stake here. This series is going to be his legacy. He knows if he dies before he finishes it the series will be forever tainted. I know he doesn't want that, and I also think the show on HBO has really helped light a fire under his ass.

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    Formerly known as Talm MalTalm's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I agree. Whenever I think about the series I'm afraid I'll never get to read the end. Still, not much we can do about it.

    On the plus side, Martin is obviously aware of what's at stake here. This series is going to be his legacy. He knows if he dies before he finishes it the series will be forever tainted. I know he doesn't want that, and I also think the show on HBO has really helped light a fire under his ass.
    Worst case scenario, DB Weiss writes the last book(s) necessary. He knows the resolution to all of the major plot arcs, and supposedly will be willed authorship if Martin passes away. Not that that'd be a great solution, as no one knows these characters like Martin, or can write in his style effectively for a 1400 page tome.
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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Just finished the first two books to catch me up with the tv series and am now starting the third. Feels a little strange to now be reading things that are new and it is nice to be able to imagine what new characters look like without knowing the actor that plays them on tv.

    I also want to watch the second season over again to see what the tv series left out or short changed. Something that sticks out as missing in the tv series that I wish they included was Hodor yelling "Hodor" all of the time. M-O-O-N, that spells Hodor.

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    Default Re: The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurl Bruce View Post
    Just finished the first two books to catch me up with the tv series and am now starting the third. Feels a little strange to now be reading things that are new and it is nice to be able to imagine what new characters look like without knowing the actor that plays them on tv.

    I also want to watch the second season over again to see what the tv series left out or short changed. Something that sticks out as missing in the tv series that I wish they included was Hodor yelling "Hodor" all of the time. M-O-O-N, that spells Hodor.
    No spoilers in this post, fyi.

    You're in for a treat. The third book is by far the best in the series. Absolutely incredible.

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