View Poll Results: If the Cavs get the second pick, who should they choose?

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  • Ben McLemore

    19 8.92%
  • Otto Porter

    129 60.56%
  • Anthony Bennett

    9 4.23%
  • Victor Oladipo

    24 11.27%
  • Alex Len

    30 14.08%
  • Other---

    2 0.94%
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Thread: 2013 NBA Draft

  1. #1486
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Nerlens Noel = Marcus Camby and that's not a bad thing.
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben View Post
    Nerlens Noel = Marcus Camby and that's not a bad thing.
    Random Marcus Camby fact: He averaged 14.8 PPG his rookie season (1996-97), and has never even averaged 13 in a single season since.

    Very odd. As for Noel, would love to have him, and I think he's got the potential to be even better than a prime Camby. Lasting 16+ years though? We could only hope.

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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Just wanted to get some thoughts out on the draft, the Cavs and some of the prospects:

    * I wasn't too happy when the Cavs drafted Waiters and the jury is still out on him but let's remember we're merely 37 games into his rookie season... Yes everything hasn't been perfect with him but let's not forget everyone can't be Kyrie right out of the gate... Let's also remember it's taken Tristan about 2 1/2 NBA season, a full off-season and a injury to Varejao to really start to come into his own... This time last year people were saying the same things about Thompson that they're currently saying about Waiters... At this point last year, a lot of his were already discussing the legitimate possibility of Thomas Robinson... How would that look right now? My point is that these rookies time to develop and come into their own... This off-season will be huge for Waiters, where he'll have a full off-season to work on his game and work on his body.... If he can put in similar work that Tristan did, then things will be looking good...

    There also needs to be some slack cut for Dion, considering he shot 47% from the field and 36% from 3 his sophomore year there... PS: it's funny everyone talks about how much better a good spot-up shooter would help Kyrie and that seems to be a main argument against Waiters starting... Does anyone realize that Synergy rates Waiters "spot-up" attempts as "excellent" and the best part of his game so far? He's shooting 41.9% on spot-up attempts with a 1.18 PPP (that's top-25 in the league FWIW, when focusing on players who actually play)... So really, it's getting Dion playing better within what his strengths are and getting him and Kyrie in a rhythm more than anything...

    This isn't meant to get into a pro-Dion or anti-Dion thread, it's just some thoughts on the matter that lead into my next thought:

    * I really don't see Chris Grant drafting a SG with the 4th pick; I just don't... He doesn't take someone that high, stick his neck out for the kid and say all throughout the process he's a starter to draft a SG to replace him... Whether or not it's the right move is another question, but I just don't see the Cavs taking a SG... Similar to how I don't think PF was ever in play for the Cavs with Thompson; CG drafted Thompson that high with the expectancy he was going to be a starter and a core piece...

    So unless the Cavs see McLemore or Shabazz as a 3 or would bring either of those guys off the bench, I just don't see how the Cavs draft them... With that said, I think there's a lot better chance the Cavs would draft Shabazz than McLemore with Shabazz being more of a bench scorer and able to play the 3... Whereas McLemore is very much a 3&D player with a little extra to his game that will be a solid, but nothing spectacular, bench player in my eyes...

    Maybe the Cavs take a SG with their 2nd 1st round pick but I just don't how Grant takes another one in the top-5 *knock on wood*...

    We also saw how much of a deal shot-creation was for the Waiters vs. Beal vs. Barnes argument... Do either of those guys do it at a level where Grant would have to look at them? I don't think so... But again, I think Shabazz does it better than McLemore...

    * I don't think there's any way right now you could justify Poythress or Porter for this team in the top-5 for this team, so I would think it's safe to assume the Cavs first pick will be a center... Especially with how deep this center class is, the Cavs will likely have their choice of who they want... Not that I'm putting anything new out there, I just think it's really time to whittle down the center class if we haven't already down so... I do think Shabazz has an outside shot at being our first pick but I would have to think they'll take the size as the tiebreaker over Muhammad, especially with our frontline vs. our backcourt...

    * Before I get into talking about the center prospects, something that we all fall victim to when discussing draft prospects is talking too much about a player weaknesses and what they can't do... That's a part of the process but there's holes for every player; there is no perfect player... Looking at a player's weaknesses and focusing on that won't get you too far... What you need to take a look at is what the player can do for you and where they're going to be able to contribute to your team... Because ultimately you're drafting a player for which area he can contribute best at and you're putting him out on the floor to do that.. Those elite skills they have or those skills that they're very strong it is what is going to make them hopefully an elite player, not what they can't do or improving incrementally on their weaknesses... Yes, ultimately improving on their weaknesses and adjusting their game will take them to the next level but their already strong skillset areas is what's going to make them..

    So really, we need to focus on what Zeller, Len, Austin and Noel can do for this team more so than what they can't...

    * With that said, I think Noel possesses the highest elite skill level and the highest impact out of all those players... Noel single handidly can change the game on the defensive end and be productive on offense.. He does so many things on the defensive end at an elite level already: block shots, collect steals, clean the glass, alter shots and play the p&r... He really does change the offensive plan because he's like a stone wall with his ability to block shots and that too changes the offensive approach because it already alters their shots and game plan as well... Yes he's skinny which will take a hit with his low-post defense but he doesn't play soft... I also mentioned this in another thread but how many truly elite centers on offense do the Cavs need to worry about? Lopez, Gasol, Hibbert, Howard and Cousins? What, 5? I know I've said this before but if the Cavs are committed to a Waiters-Irving backcourt, then they also need to commit to a strong interior defense because one needs the other for this team to be successful... The Cavs need to improve their defense as it is but if Waiters & Irving are the future then the defense inside needs to be strong to makeup for them...

    * Which kind of leads into my next point specifically about Zeller and maybe lesser even about Austin and Noel... I know I said focus on what the players can do instead of what they can't do, so I'm already breaking my own rule but I just don't see how the Cavs can justify taking Zeller with Waiters and Irving in the backcourt... What kind of defense are you looking at there? I can understand if Zeller had the physical profile to be a legit center but I don't think he does... Also: what does Zeller do extremely well? I don't think there's one thing offensively, that's a skill, that you can point to that he does really well.. He can score, he's solid on the low-block and has a jumper but does he do those things at a high enough level to warrant a high pick and overcome his defensive deficiencies, especially on this team? I don't think so...

    With Zeller, I also think it's worth mentioning that Grant seems to be sold on the notion that having a top-notch physical profile with elite athleticism is a necessary for a high draft pick and also necessary to become a top-end player in this league... He's mentioned it several times but I think it's been backed up by the picks of Thompson and Waiters early and even with Zeller later on (not taking someone like that high)... I don't see the elite athleticism or physical skillset with Zeller that tends to be an All-Star player... I realize you can argue Gasol, Lee, etc., have disproved that theory but I'm more so going off of what Grant seems to believe... He also mentioned about 7'0fters will also always have a place in the league; Zeller isn't going to be a 7ft center, probably well under that...

    * At this point, I think I'd rather have Len and even possibly Austin over Zeller... I was a bit down on Austin and I'm still not sold on him at the next level, but I see more out of him that leads me to believe he'll be a better player than Zeller and a better fit for this team than Zeller... With Austin, my worry is that while he is athletic and he can move, I don't see a ton of fluidity on the defensive end or natural explosion... I realize he's athletic for his size but I think he seems a bit out of his element on the P&R and his shot-blocking is really more so because of his length and size then it is because of his athleticism... I don't see the lateral quickness or second jump ability that makes me think he can be an elite, impact defender like a Noel... With Noel, he has that to compensate for his lack of lower body strength... With Austin, he doesn't have either... I was initially very discouraged to see him rebounding and especially blocking shots at a low-rate.. So it's bee nice to see him pick-it up a bit in that area...

    With Austin, his offensive ability is really intriguing because of his inside-out ability and already pretty decent around the basket game... I would probably say he's better than Len in both aspects... I also think his defensive potential might be higher than Len's...

    * With Len, I'm come back down to earth a little bit for him... I really do like his improvement year-to-year and how much work he put in; we're really seeing the results this season... I also realize how difficult it is to watch Maryland and watch him not get the ball... When he does get the ball, his post-up game and jump-shot ability is intriguing... Defensively he's turned out to be a pretty good rebounder and will get a couple of blocked shots because of his size and length... But I will say, his post defense could use some work, the farther he gets away from the basket the less comfortable he looks and his shot-blocking isn't as impressive as some others because his initial jump and 2nd jump are average in terms of explosion...

    With Len, I've always seen a good, solid all-around player... I think the development he's shown and the explosion vs. Kentucky has certainly hyped his stock up... But my worry with him is if he'll be better than a solid player at the next level.. It's sort of a similar concern I have with Zeller but I do see Len being able to be a better player than Zeller...

    Me personally, Noel is definitely my #1 target... After that, it's a mumbo-jumbo of players with Austin and Len probably being the next two with Shabazz being a possibility as well...

    For Grant, I honestly think Austin might be the pick for him... I know how much I like Noel but I'm not sure I see him taking a player that high who doesn't produce at a high level on offense, especially with Tristan... As much as I think he likes him, I think he realizes there still needs to be an offensive player down there to compliment him as well as help out Dion and Kyrie too and Austin offers a nice potential inside-out combo... He also is comfortable on the perimeter and away from the basket unlike a Len, which is something to consider with Byron and the bigs... I also see Austin as a kid that Grant will see as an extremely high character kid and really like a lot in that regard.. Defensively there are concerns but I think the offense and physical abilities is enough to cover it up unlike Zeller... I also think the high-end potential and physical abilities tip the scale in favor of Austin over Len as well... So honestly, I really think Austin would be Grant's pick right now if I had to guess...

    I realize this was a lot and I applaud anyone that reads it Just wanted to get my thoughts out on this whole process so far...


  6. #1489
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben View Post
    Nerlens Noel = Marcus Camby and that's not a bad thing.
    If Noel goes #1 (or even #2 like Camby did), I'm not certain that's a really good thing either. This is Camby's 17th season in the NBA which is truly incredible, he won a defensive player of the year, was a four-time All-Defense honoree, and was one of the best shot blockers of his generation. On the other hand, Camby has had an injury riddled career, played for seven different teams, topped out offensively as a rookie, and has unspectacular career averages of 9.6 PPG and 9.8 RPG.

    This comparison get thrown around a lot so you would have to hope that if you took this Camby, you aren't passing on a Kobe, Ray Allen, or Steve Nash

  7. #1490
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by UDcleveland View Post
    Random Marcus Camby fact: He averaged 14.8 PPG his rookie season (1996-97), and has never even averaged 13 in a single season since.

    Very odd. As for Noel, would love to have him, and I think he's got the potential to be even better than a prime Camby. Lasting 16+ years though? We could only hope.
    I think he has that potential as well. The guy still is only 18 after all, and he's beating Camby's rebounding, FG%, rebounding, blocks, steals, turnovers even in Camby's junior year of college.

    And did I mention the 12 blocks Noel had tonight?! Retarded.
    "For the Tank God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Tank Son, Antawn Jamison, and whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting high draft picks." - Tank 3:16

  8. #1491
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    I like Noel a lot, he's in my top 2...but his statline tonight is pretty hysterical.

    36min, 0-1 FG, 2-8 FT, 2 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 12 blocks

    That is goon status lol.

    But the lack of offense is scary. Tristan is becoming a capable scorer down low, and there's no reason why Noel couldn't, but do we really want to end up with our 2 frontcourt starters being below average on offense?

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  10. #1492
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrie To The View Post
    I like Noel a lot, he's in my top 2...but his statline tonight is pretty hysterical.

    36min, 0-1 FG, 2-8 FT, 2 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 12 blocks

    That is goon status lol.

    But the lack of offense is scary. Tristan is becoming a capable scorer down low, and there's no reason why Noel couldn't, but do we really want to end up with our 2 frontcourt starters being below average on offense?
    Even if the offense never comes, he'd still be the best/most effective role player in the NBA..... I mean, Joakim Noah doesn't have any offense either, though. And with TT's development, who knows what he will look like in a few years....

  11. #1493
    Situational Stopper Homestar's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrie To The View Post
    I like Noel a lot, he's in my top 2...but his statline tonight is pretty hysterical.

    36min, 0-1 FG, 2-8 FT, 2 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 12 blocks

    That is goon status lol.

    But the lack of offense is scary. Tristan is becoming a capable scorer down low, and there's no reason why Noel couldn't, but do we really want to end up with our 2 frontcourt starters being below average on offense?
    It's those kinds of stat lines that scare me. 12 blocks is epic, do not get me wrong. But Anthony Davis averaged 4.7 last year at UK and is now sitting at 1.8 – good for 12th in the league. Not bad at all, but we see shot blocking phenomenons drastically slow down as they enter the NBA every year.

    Offensively, the fact that a guy could play 36 minutes and put up an 0 for 1 with 2 points... I just don't see Grant going that route.

    I remain on board with the "any of these three will do" band wagon: McLemore, Muhammad, or Len. Why, you ask?

    Because, while Smooth makes great points about Grant picking "his guy" in Waiters, I think the BPA theory is more valid here than ever before. Regardless of whether LeQuit comes here in '14, I think we can all fully expect for Gilbert to make a huge splash via trades or free agency.

    The only untouchable is Kyrie. Thompson, Waiters, Zeller, and the '13 draftees are potentially going to be moved for a big fish like Kevin Love. I think Grant could absolutely draft McLemore or Muhammad, without a second thought. That way, when we are ready to make our big trade(s), he gets to choose which SG he likes more., or which one has more value.

    This is what 2014 looks like to the front office:

    F
    F
    C
    G
    G Irving

    F
    F
    C
    G
    G

    F
    F
    C
    G
    G

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  13. #1494
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Doesn't matter if nerlin's learns how to score. He projects as one of the greatest defenders of all time.

  14. #1495
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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    In case we fall or end up in the 6-10 range for some reason. Otto Porter and Willie Cauley-Stein are guys I like. Its basically SF, Center or bust so these two are worth a shot If It comes down to that.



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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Smooth, I agree that Austin is the best fit offensively out of all of the available centers since with his legit 3 point stroke he'd be incredible for floor spacing, not to mention his ability to finish in the post. The question you'd have to ask if you were Grant is, are you comfortable with TT handling the big centers for at least the next few years? It'll be a similar situation with Portland this year, where undersized Hickson is matching up with all of the bigs down low to free up Aldridge on offense.

    And I completely agree with you on Zeller. I've been saying it over and over again, but he just doesn't do anything on offense at a high enough level to get past his physical (wingspan) and athletic limitations, and I have doubts that he'll ever be even an average defender in the league.

    My personal big ranking is:

    1. Noel
    2. Austin
    3. Len
    4. Gobert (Hell, might as well swing for the fences)
    5. Zeller

    Granted, I know there are tiers of players and if a team wants to trade up to target a specific non-C, I'd like to move back and get some additional assets where we can.

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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    I'm not saying we need a shooter at the 3 because Dion can't shoot. I'm saying it because we need a guy who is comfortable waiting for the ball and shooting from deep because both Dion and Kyrie will be ball-dominant guards. Gee is a slasher who can't shoot. That's one to many guys who need the ball to be effective. We need a guy who can do something else, not the same things as Dion and Kyrie.
    Quote Originally Posted by David.
    Idiot

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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    As far as the offensive concerns for Noel: they're very real, as his FT% is horrific and there is really no low-post game to speak of... But he's going to get buckets in transition, off of garbage plays, offensive rebounds and he'll be a very good P&R big... So while his skillset on offense is raw, he's going to be able to contribute... It's just going to be contingent on him making hustle plays and others setting him up...

    I honestly think Tyson Chandler could be a pretty good comparison for Noel too...

    Quote Originally Posted by howler1313 View Post
    Smooth, I agree that Austin is the best fit offensively out of all of the available centers since with his legit 3 point stroke he'd be incredible for floor spacing, not to mention his ability to finish in the post. The question you'd have to ask if you were Grant is, are you comfortable with TT handling the big centers for at least the next few years? It'll be a similar situation with Portland this year, where undersized Hickson is matching up with all of the bigs down low to free up Aldridge on offense.
    Essentially what the Cavs are looking for is a big who can play the 4 offensively and 5 defensively, or at least have the physical profile and ability of a 5 defensively... And all things considered, Austin has the best skillset and physical profile to fill that... I haven't been high on Austin and will have to go back and watch more games, but that's just me being honest about who's out there....

    Quote Originally Posted by howler1313 View Post
    Granted, I know there are tiers of players and if a team wants to trade up to target a specific non-C, I'd like to move back and get some additional assets where we can.
    In a perfect world, some team offers the Cavs a proven player for their pick...

    Quote Originally Posted by Homestar View Post
    Because, while Smooth makes great points about Grant picking "his guy" in Waiters, I think the BPA theory is more valid here than ever before. Regardless of whether LeQuit comes here in '14, I think we can all fully expect for Gilbert to make a huge splash via trades or free agency.

    The only untouchable is Kyrie. Thompson, Waiters, Zeller, and the '13 draftees are potentially going to be moved for a big fish like Kevin Love. I think Grant could absolutely draft McLemore or Muhammad, without a second thought. That way, when we are ready to make our big trade(s), he gets to choose which SG he likes more., or which one has more value.
    I agree with you about BPA but the thing is that a big man who can play at a high level, will do more for this team and its development than McLemore or Muhammad will do... With the way this roster is currently constructed, this team really needs someone else down-low who can impact the game on both ends..

    While it's good to collect assets and build for future possibilities, if you build on what could be, you'll likely miss out of what's best for the building of your team..

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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    Essentially what the Cavs are looking for is a big who can play the 4 offensively and 5 defensively, or at least have the physical profile and ability of a 5 defensively... And all things considered, Austin has the best skillset and physical profile to fill that... I haven't been high on Austin and will have to go back and watch more games, but that's just me being honest about who's out there....
    I've watched a fair number of Baylor games, and Austin will occasionally show off a move that just makes you shake your head at how easy it looks for a 7 footer. I remember in the Gonzaga game he hit several step back 18 footers in a row, and he even swished a step back 3 in another game. There's also this one play Baylor runs which seems to be money at least 60-75% of the time I watch, where Austin starts out on the right block, gets a baseline screen to set up deep post position on the left block, then works his way into the middle of the lane for a jump right hook shot. Has really soft touch on that shot, and seems to finish regularly through contact.

    That said, no way to get around the fact that post defense will be a huge concern and I don't see how he'll be able to hold ground and bang with NBA C's for at least the first few years. I don't think it's a case of him being naturally soft as you'll see him initiate contact a fair bit when he has the ball of the block, but his build is just way too frail to handle that without at least 20 additional pounds. He could probably block shots at a near average rate right away, but we'd probably be better served giving the tougher defensive assignments to Thompson/Varejao early in his career.

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    Default Re: 2013 NBA Draft

    I love Nerlens Noel. Not just because he is a great shot blocker but he has a mean streak to him. Every team Needs that edge and I think Noel is the only player in the draft that brings that. He is skinny as a twig but his demeanor is like that of a bear.
    When in doubt, step up the defense

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