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Thread: Dion Waiters

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    Team Player Goldin Brown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    * off topic - Shabazz is a SG imo. If he was legitimately 6'7 or taller he would be a SF. But he's not, he's 6'6 at best and he looked heavy when he played his first few college games at around 225. That tells me that his best weight will likely be around 210-215. He would get abused by the top flight NBA SF's at that size, however he would be lethal playing the 2 guard position at that same size. That's why I say he is a SG, I think its the best position for him.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldin Brown View Post
    * off topic - Shabazz is a SG imo. If he was legitimately 6'7 or taller he would be a SF. But he's not, he's 6'6 at best and he looked heavy when he played his first few college games at around 225. That tells me that his best weight will likely be around 210-215. He would get abused by the top flight NBA SF's at that size, however he would be lethal playing the 2 guard position at that same size. That's why I say he is a SG, I think its the best position for him.
    Metta world peace, Danny Green, Paul Pierce, Alonzo Gee, Cory Maggette, etc can all play small forward quite well.

    A small forward needs lateral quickness. the ability to draw fouls and set up on either side of the high post with good rebounding skills.

    A guy like shabaz on the Cavs would be a three maybe somewhere else he would be a two. The important thing is to figure out his position right away and stick him there. if the cavs draft him theres no fdoubt it would be with the intention to play hm at the three.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldin Brown View Post
    * off topic - Shabazz is a SG imo. If he was legitimately 6'7 or taller he would be a SF. But he's not, he's 6'6 at best and he looked heavy when he played his first few college games at around 225. That tells me that his best weight will likely be around 210-215. He would get abused by the top flight NBA SF's at that size, however he would be lethal playing the 2 guard position at that same size. That's why I say he is a SG, I think its the best position for him.
    Ah, but he was 235 when he was overweight, not 225. He cut down to 222 and is now in shape. Enough of the hyperbole and misinformation. He may be 6'6", but he has a higher standing reach than Harrison Barnes, who is 6'8", by 2 inches on top of having the same wingspan. If he has the same wingspan, standing reach (better than Barnes in this case), and weight as Barnes, then what does it matter how high up his head reaches?

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Shabazz is 6'4 1/2" bare footed, which would make him one of, if not the smallest small forward in the nba. He does have more of a small forwards game though. He is a little too left handed for my tastes and has about 0 playmaking skills. he could play small forward in a pitch like when teams go to their bench and go with three guard lineups. On a nightly basis he would be a little overmatched at the three in my opinion. He loves to post up smaller players and i don't see him having a lot of success doing that at the three.

    Edit: Whoops, I thought i was in the draft thread.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Also, from NBA.com Power Rankings.

    Cleveland (6-23)
    Pace: 94.6 (14), OffRtg: 97.3 (29), DefRtg: 106.0 (27)
    The Cavs have just six wins, but four of them have come against the Clippers, Hawks, Lakers and Bucks. And three of those four came on the road, including Saturday's win in Milwaukee with no Anderson Varejao. They're not exactly giant killers, but they're certainly a wildcard with that young and talented backcourt of theirs. They're a plus-16 with Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters on the floor together.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Shabazz is 6'4 1/2" bare footed, which would make him one of, if not the smallest small forward in the nba. He does have more of a small forwards game though. He is a little too left handed for my tastes and has about 0 playmaking skills. he could play small forward in a pitch like when teams go to their bench and go with three guard lineups. On a nightly basis he would be a little overmatched at the three in my opinion. He loves to post up smaller players and i don't see him having a lot of success doing that at the three.

    Edit: Whoops, I thought i was in the draft thread.
    No one is listed by their bare feet. They're always listed with shoes. Also, no one blocks things with their head. They do it with their hands. That's why height is an outdated indicator of being able to do well at a position offensively and defensively.

    Here's Shabazz compared to every small forward who was ever drafted in the NBA and got measured at the NBA pre-draft combine:

    Average height (w/o shoes): 6' 6.53"
    Shabazz's height (w/o shoes): 6'4.5" (below average, but height doesn't matter compared to wingspan and standing reach)

    Average weight: 217 lbs
    Shabazz's weight: 222 lbs (this is Shabazz's new weight that he dropped down to in order to get in shape, and it's still above average)

    Average wingspan: 6' 10.7"
    Shabazz's wingspan: 6'11.25" (slightly above average)

    Average standing reach: 8' 8.3"
    Shabazz's standing reach: 8'8" (slightly below average)

    So Shabazz is above average in 2 out of the 3 measurements that matter. So statistically, he'll be bigger than at rougly 50% of small forwards when looking overall at weight, wingspan, and standing reach. Not outmatched at all. His standing reach and wingspan allow him to play bigger than his height because they are above average for a guy of his height. And again, his wingspan equals Harrison Barnes' wingspan, and his standing reach outdoes Barnes' by 2 1/2 inches.

    Caron Butler is very similar in size to Shabazz: 6'6.5" in shoes (+.75"), 6'11.5" wingspan (+.25"), 8'7.5" standing reach (-.5"), 222 lbs (same). 2x all-star player at small forward who is almost the exact same size as Shabazz.

    God, why do I always get suckered into responding to things like these?

    Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see whether or not we go for another perimeter player especially if it is Shabazz. We will probably implement Dion as a full-time backup to Kyrie at PG when he's not on the floor. I'll love to see Dion at backup PG for stretches just like Scott did a couple of games ago. Dion looked baller doing it, and I can't imagine what he'll be like in his prime doing that. He really does remind me a ton of Dumars, which really makes me want to keep him starting.

    It just feels like you always lose your bench players more easily than your starters because you don't get to utilize them as much as other teams will as starters, so they're willing to pay more kinda like how Houston was willing to pay up for Harden as a starter. They're certainly getting more use out of him than OKC.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Without Andy, sure they don't look like contenders... but getting Dion back has allowed to look at the future nicely.

    Seeing our 5 core guys (Tyler, TT, Gee, Dion, Kyrie) on the court together made me think enthusiastically. The only one who was partially confused was Tyler, only due to lack of playing time with this group. But having Dion out there was a relief, especially since one of our better perimeter guys came back (Kyrie). He realized some mistakes, understood he doesn't need to shoulder the load, and when he passed to Kyrie at the end of a quarter for respect, Kyrie gave it back to him, showing that he respects Dion's game changing abilities. Now defenses can't key in so easily. This is clearly superior to the Mo/West backcourt, but I do realize having a better swingman than Gee and a better center than Tyler could make us look like elite contenders in a few years.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    I went on YouTube last night and looked at highlights of Dion early in the season and then the last game. You can tell that he is working on that leg kick on jump shots. He is going more straight up. I also watched how he picks and chooses to attack and it is very interesting that he gets two defenders on him a lot but by design and he has a good knack for looking for the open man. I am really looking forward to his growth.
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by CavsFanJapan View Post
    I went on YouTube last night and looked at highlights of Dion early in the season and then the last game. You can tell that he is working on that leg kick on jump shots. He is going more straight up. I also watched how he picks and chooses to attack and it is very interesting that he gets two defenders on him a lot but by design and he has a good knack for looking for the open man. I am really looking forward to his growth.
    That's probably one of the most surprising things I have seen from Dion this year. He really has excellent court vision, especially when driving to the hole. Maybe the time on the bench helped him a bit. Sometimes it's not a bad thing for a young guy to sit back and see things from a different perspective for a while.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    If we drafted Shabaaz im confident hed be a 3. I think Byron has proven he doesnt care about height of players when looking at matchups. I mean cmon alot last year he ran Ramon at the 2. He loves his 2's to be ballhandlers so thats why I think hed never make Dion 6th man unless we got a decent ball handling 2 to start. I dont think wed draft Shabaaz only because hs skillset is so close to Gee's but a worse outside shooter. Now im all for Shabaaz if we think he has superstar potential.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    That's probably one of the most surprising things I have seen from Dion this year. He really has excellent court vision, especially when driving to the hole. Maybe the time on the bench helped him a bit. Sometimes it's not a bad thing for a young guy to sit back and see things from a different perspective for a while.
    He's been doing that since the preseason. Taking his time and playing to what the D gives him. Not putting his head down and going full speed improves your assist/TO ratio, but sometimes can be seen as being too passive. Kyrie is almost the opposite. He has more of scorer mentally. Trying to dictate to the defense which is + and also -.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    That's probably one of the most surprising things I have seen from Dion this year. He really has excellent court vision, especially when driving to the hole. Maybe the time on the bench helped him a bit. Sometimes it's not a bad thing for a young guy to sit back and see things from a different perspective for a while.
    Dion even said the time off gave him the opportunity to view a ton of film an analyze his mistakes, such as relying too much on the three when he is fully capable of driving and kicking. We've been seeing him do just that the past few games.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by DW3 View Post
    He's been doing that since the preseason. Taking his time and playing to what the D gives him. Not putting his head down and going full speed improves your assist/TO ratio, but sometimes can be seen as being too passive. Kyrie is almost the opposite. He has more of scorer mentally. Trying to dictate to the defense which is + and also -.
    Speaing on that I still dont have an accurate measure on how quick Dion really is. I only got like the 1st 15 games before i deployed so, I dont really know his physical attributes. From what I saw he has both a playmakers and a scorers mind. I love that, and he can do both well. When i watched him i was surprised at his good shot selection on jumpers but i guess its gotten a little worse since then. He strikes me as a guy that will take, and can make any shot so im not mad at him taking jumpers, but I just hope he realizes his limitations

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by RMsDanielGibson View Post
    No one is listed by their bare feet. They're always listed with shoes. Also, no one blocks things with their head. They do it with their hands. That's why height is an outdated indicator of being able to do well at a position offensively and defensively.

    Here's Shabazz compared to every small forward who was ever drafted in the NBA and got measured at the NBA pre-draft combine:

    Average height (w/o shoes): 6' 6.53"
    Shabazz's height (w/o shoes): 6'4.5" (below average, but height doesn't matter compared to wingspan and standing reach)

    Average weight: 217 lbs
    Shabazz's weight: 222 lbs (this is Shabazz's new weight that he dropped down to in order to get in shape, and it's still above average)

    Average wingspan: 6' 10.7"
    Shabazz's wingspan: 6'11.25" (slightly above average)

    Average standing reach: 8' 8.3"
    Shabazz's standing reach: 8'8" (slightly below average)

    So Shabazz is above average in 2 out of the 3 measurements that matter. So statistically, he'll be bigger than at rougly 50% of small forwards when looking overall at weight, wingspan, and standing reach. Not outmatched at all. His standing reach and wingspan allow him to play bigger than his height because they are above average for a guy of his height. And again, his wingspan equals Harrison Barnes' wingspan, and his standing reach outdoes Barnes' by 2 1/2 inches.

    Caron Butler is very similar in size to Shabazz: 6'6.5" in shoes (+.75"), 6'11.5" wingspan (+.25"), 8'7.5" standing reach (-.5"), 222 lbs (same). 2x all-star player at small forward who is almost the exact same size as Shabazz.

    God, why do I always get suckered into responding to things like these?

    Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see whether or not we go for another perimeter player especially if it is Shabazz. We will probably implement Dion as a full-time backup to Kyrie at PG when he's not on the floor. I'll love to see Dion at backup PG for stretches just like Scott did a couple of games ago. Dion looked baller doing it, and I can't imagine what he'll be like in his prime doing that. He really does remind me a ton of Dumars, which really makes me want to keep him starting.

    It just feels like you always lose your bench players more easily than your starters because you don't get to utilize them as much as other teams will as starters, so they're willing to pay more kinda like how Houston was willing to pay up for Harden as a starter. They're certainly getting more use out of him than OKC.
    Unless he plans on wearing high heals he is short for a small forward. That is why they take measurements without shoes because some clown can come in wearing mega shoes. You just listed the average height without shoes for a small forward is 6'6 1/2". That puts him two inches shorter than the average small forward. That is significant size he is giving up. Before we get to the standing reach is greater than height argument, I will point out that you don't see over the defense with your hands.
    Last edited by TyGuy; 12-25-2012 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by DW3 View Post
    He's been doing that since the preseason. Taking his time and playing to what the D gives him.
    Yes, he has. I probably should have started a new paragraph and expanded on my thoughts a bit more. But, what Jack said below is more of what I was referring to as to when he was on the bench for a few games...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Dion even said the time off gave him the opportunity to view a ton of film an analyze his mistakes, such as relying too much on the three when he is fully capable of driving and kicking. We've been seeing him do just that the past few games.
    Yep. I think part of it was also the fact he wasn't finishing real well/getting calls, too. I know the calls will come with time, and I'm hoping his touch around the rim will also. The KI and Dion duo has a chance to be a good one if they can figure some things out. They are pretty much interchangeable on offense. Dion just needs to continue to get better moving without the ball.

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