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Thread: Dion Waiters

  1. #4516
    Rising Star KB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Sure, but tristan Thompson is not good enough to pass on guys because they don't fit well with him.

    If my big man doesn't have range outside of 8 feet, I would prefer it to be my center because they are a much rarer commodity.

    We haven't exactly become world beaters with all that perimeter ball handling dion brings. We do have a guy that puts up more shots than points though.



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    I understand what you're saying but do not agree.

    A wing in the last draft was more important than another project bigman based on the need to take pressure of KI as the primary scorer so he can develop good game management skills and D. Also the fact a team can't consistently take project players(high risk/reward) in the top 10 because the majority of the time the project doesn't pan out for years, if they pan out at all.

    If a team has no problem taking project players consistently you still don't take more than one project at each position. If you take more than one the balancing of minutes will almost always ensure that one of the project players has no chance of hitting even half of their potential.

    Grant's been in a situation where the gm/personal choice makers have taken who they thought was bpa regardless of position/overall polish. Hawks ended up with Josh Childress, Marvin Williams and Josh Smith...I would say Grant learned from what happened there meaning the fact that you don’t overload a position and need/fit are just as important as overall talent/potential.

    Don’t go back to the bpa argument there are times when it’s valid and there are times when it’s not. The Dion pick is a time when where the bpa argument can’t be used because each and every player left at 4 had question marks and none had separated themselves from the others by that point in time.

    The bigs in the 3 upcoming drafts are going to be head and shoulders above any big in the last few drafts but aside from Davis.

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  3. #4517
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by KB View Post
    I understand what you're saying but do not agree.

    A wing in the last draft was more important than another project bigman based on the need to take pressure of KI as the primary scorer so he can develop good game management skills and D. Also the fact a team can't consistently take project players(high risk/reward) in the top 10 because the majority of the time the project doesn't pan out for years, if they pan out at all.

    If a team has no problem taking project players consistently you still don't take more than one project at each position. If you take more than one the balancing of minutes will almost always ensure that one of the project players has no chance of hitting even half of their potential.

    Grant's been in a situation where the gm/personal choice makers have taken who they thought was bpa regardless of position/overall polish. Hawks ended up with Josh Childress, Marvin Williams and Josh Smith...I would say Grant learned from what happened there meaning the fact that you don’t overload a position and need/fit are just as important as overall talent/potential.

    Don’t go back to the bpa argument there are times when it’s valid and there are times when it’s not. The Dion pick is a time when where the bpa argument can’t be used because each and every player left at 4 had question marks and none had separated themselves from the others by that point in time.

    The bigs in the 3 upcoming drafts are going to be head and shoulders above any big in the last few drafts but aside from Davis.
    Good points, I really don't think we needed a secondary ball handler as much as we needed another scorer. The beauty of of Kyrie is that he is adapt on or off the ball. I still don't like the idea of taking him off the ball so a lesser player can command the offense though. That theory never made much sense to me. If that is the case, Lillard would have been the far better selection.

    You are right that the next couple drafts do have excellent big men, but we would have the same problem with noel that we have with andre. Which is why I brought up having the more offensively challenged center is much better than a power forward because it is difficult to pair centers with someone like TT. The opposite is true with power forward because there are a lot in the modern nba who have perimeter skills and shooting touch to keep those lanes open.

    Alex Len is a guy who i think fits extremely well with what we currently need at center. I still find it silly that we are bending over backwards to accommodate TT when he's not that great of a talent.
    Last edited by TyGuy; 12-26-2012 at 10:06 PM.

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  5. #4518
    Hustling on the inside wuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Let's talk about Waiters:

    Confidence: not a problem

    Taking important shots: not a problem

    Finishing: still a problem

    Playing with Kyrie: still a huge question mark, especially off the ball. Since both came back, he also seems tentative with the ball.

    Defense: better than some Cavs, not bad for a rookie

    BTW, I hate Byron's rotation where he takes Waiters out at 6 mins, takes Irving out at 9 mins, and has both of them sit for a while. Hate it.

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    If you looked at Dion's skill set today without considering draft position or history, he looks like a sixth man. He is a combo guard. He can still emerge as a starter but I'm not seeing anything that makes me feel he will be the future at SG the same way that Kyrie made me feel he was the future at PG from the moment he stepped on the court. Things don't seem as natural with Dion and his game is more rugged. I think he can be a good piece but he isn't penciled in as Cavs starting SG for the next 8 years in my book. At least not yet.

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  9. #4520
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Good points, I really don't think we needed a secondary ball handler as much as we needed another scorer. The beauty of of Kyrie is that he is adapt on or off the ball. I still don't like the idea of taking him off the ball so a lesser player can command the offense though. That theory never made much sense to me, and if that is the case, Lillard would have been the far better selection.

    You are right that the next couple drafts do have excellent big men, but we would have the same problem with noel that we have with andre. Which is why I brought up having the more offensively challenged center is much better than a power forward because it is difficult to pair centers with someone like TT. The opposite is true with power forward because there are a lot in the modern nba who have perimeter skills and shooting touch to keep those lanes open.

    Alex Len is a guy who i think fits extremely well with what we currently need at center. I still find it silly that we are bending over backwards to accommodate TT when hes not that great of a talent.
    With the open way the game is played now a team needs at least 2 players who can break down the D and get shots for themselves/others or that team is going to be on a treadmill. Which I think is a about half the reason Dion was the pick. I think Dion has displayed more basketball skill/iq than any player Cavs could have taken at 4 aside from Barnes. Barnes still hasn't shown he can be effective off the dribble though which will always hold him back unless he can adjust.

    I think the need for the 2nd ball handler/playmaker was bigger for the same reason you think it's not which is KI's ability to play off ball. If the team wants to utilize KI's off ball skills the best way to do that is to get a player who can allow those match ups to happen. The Cavs didn't have this prior to Dion, thinking about letting Gibson, Pargo, Sloan, Gee or Miles initiate the offense with KI off ball is just a scary thought.

    I believe the Cavs learned how important it is to be able to play your star off the ball as a by-product of the LBJ era and the last 5 minutes of a game consistently ending with LeIso

    I agree with you on Len, I think he is going to be the best all around bigman in the next draft. I'm hoping the Cavs end up in a situation where he is available to select. I'd probably take Len before Noel and Shabbie because with as good as Len is playing I'm of the OP that he doesn't get enough touches on the block in Marylands offense.

    Another big I like a lot is Austin from Baylor, has a deft touch for a manchild of his size. Very Dirk'sh in that respect. Either of these two would be a perfect balance to KI and Dion


    IMO right now Dion's only real problem is he isn't used to playing against people who are almost as good as he is. Players with Dion's skill set that end up in Byron's system almost always pan out and develop a well rounded game. His reads in the P & R are all ready very good in terms of hitting the open player. The more I watch Dion the more I start to think he will become a more willing passer than KI
    Last edited by KB; 12-26-2012 at 10:14 PM.

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  11. #4521
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Dion played solid tema ball and forced beal to the bench. 6 of beals last 7 games he had played more than 35 minutes and he was coming off 3 days rest

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  13. #4522
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Back to hating waiters huh
    Ill stay on the bandwagon like i did tristan

  14. #4523
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    The guy is going to be a below average nba player this year. Deal with it. However, if you don't see his talent, then maybe your basketball knowledge doesn't have the basis to make sweeping judgments about players after 30 games.
    I hate when our super blowouts turn into just double digit "teen" blowouts to win the game.
    ~typhoon

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  16. #4524
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by randymoss1881 View Post
    Back to hating waiters huh
    Ill stay on the bandwagon like i did tristan
    If by hating you mean being critical for churning out stinky performances consistently, sure.



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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Adding to my point, i still think Beal is going to be a good player, so long as randy wittman isnt his coach for much longer. You can generally tell when a player is going to be good, but determining how BAD a player is going to be is much more difficult. This isn't entirely true either though, both OJ Mayo and Tyreke Evans played like stars their first years, but neither turned out to be the perennial all stars they seemed destined to be after year 1.

    Time is the only tool we have.
    I hate when our super blowouts turn into just double digit "teen" blowouts to win the game.
    ~typhoon

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Recently read that Dion and Kyrie have an average +15 on the +- stat when they are on the court together. For a losing team that is otherwise always in the negative in points, that doesn't sound like two players who are struggling to coexist. It could be that Kyrie is overshadowing Dion when they are on the court together, but that isn't the same as they don't play well together.

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  21. #4527
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Dion is there to give some rest to Kyrie and make the defense honest by having 2 break down players. Unlike other "combo guards" Dion seems to play defense better than most of the guys in the same category.
    When in doubt, step up the defense

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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Think it might be time to face the fact that Dion just isn't a very good basketball player.

  23. #4529
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Jigo View Post
    Think it might be time to face the fact that Dion just isn't a very good basketball player.
    I disagree on that. If 3 years from now he's still shooting sub 40%, I will agree with you. He's feeling his way through the league right now, learning defenses. He's very good at getting to the basket. Eventually he'll learn the angles he needs to take and how to absorb contact to draw fouls. Once he learns that, he will be pretty deadly offensively.

    Defensively, he will struggle to defend the bigger guards. He's gotta keep his active hands and quick feet to create steals. That's the best way he can succeed vs 2 guards.

    I think ultimately, his best role will be a 6th man. Instant offense off the bench at either guard position. I really like our backcourt if we get a 6'6-6'7 2 guard who can shoot first and get to the basket 2nd. That player teamed with Kyrie in the starting backcourt and Waiters coming off the bench will give a the Cavs a tremendous 3 man rotation that teams will have a lot of trouble matching up against.

  24. #4530
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    Default Re: Welcome Dion Waiters - LHLD

    You wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Jigo View Post
    Think it might be time to face the fact that Dion just isn't a very good basketball player.
    but I read:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Jigo View Post
    Think it might be time to jump to conclusions after 1/3 of a season.


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