The Jonas V thread

[Mdog1]

This is a joke, right?

Not in the slightest. Jonas has been a professional player for years playing against players that were much better than anyone Tristan played against other than his last two years. Jonas is as close to a finished rookie as you will see in terms of potential, where as Tristan is pretty close to the rawest player you will see. Athletecism in the NBA means potential, and Jonas is far from an elite athlete, where as Tristan is a very good one.

Let me put it this way. If Tristan gets a 15 footer, and can reach his defensive ceiling he will be the second best player from the 2011 draft. In order for Jonas to be better than Tristan he would have to improve his defense a ton. As for now i'd say Jonas is likely going to be better, but i'm talking about their ceilings, of which Tristan's is higher.

Jonas has a higher floor though, and in a weak draft, sometimes that's more important. I mean if we were trying to make a homerun swing on potential, I would have prefered swinging at Biyombo. Oh well.

[NarlCavs]

The one decision that Chris Grant has made that I strongly disagreed with was taking Thompson over Valanciunas. So far I have not seen anything to make me feel differently.

Jonas is almost a full year younger that Thompson and this is also his first exposure to American and NBA style basketball while Thompson has had far more exposure in comparison.
The potential and ceiling if fully developed is as high or higher with Jonas than with Thompson. When I saw Tristan at Texas I wasn't overly impressed then and so far he continues to look like the level of PF the Cavs could have taken at a later spot in another draft. I just have not seen this supposed potentially great or elite level defense and rebounding that's claimed he possesses.
One of the biggest things for me from the start has been that C is a more important and difficult position to fill than PF and that PF's are the easiest players to find. It wouldn't at all be far fetched to say Jonas could easily be at least a top 10 C in the NBA by the time he's 25 and he could be more than that.

[RTrees]

Ive been watching all of Torontos games, and the guy is going to be good. He has a great feel for the game and plays like a traditional center with great size.

One of my worries with him coming over, was that he would rely too heavily on jumping and not be able to do the fundamental things bigs do on boards and defensively (like the undersized pf we drafted instead of him)

Instead, he plays great positional defense and boxes his man out more than chasing rebounds, allowing for other Toronto players to crash better. He has a great fundamental understanding of the game. Looks like Hibbert after Hibbert already had a couple years in the league and 4 years in college. Already more valuable than a Javele McGee or a DeAndre Jordan in his ability to play below the rim as a big man.

Strongly disagree about his defensive positioning. He seems to have no clue about the rhythm of NBA basketball on the defensive end. Sure his motor is great, but it takes more than running around like a chicken with your head cut off to compete when it matters. I've seen nothing that suggests Jonas has a mental edge on the competition other than his effort.

Like Z in Cleveland, I think Jonas can turn into a good regular season player. As for NBA playoff basketball, when the tough get going, give me a guy who can hold his ground on defense and play with the big boys. Jonas is a graceful center with skills and good determination. But that frame has a high center of gravity and will be easy to manipulate without a strong base. He can make up for a lot of that with is length but it will always be a struggle for him imo.

[TyGuy]

The thing that is worrisome about chris grant is he falls in love with players and then gets tunnel vision on draft night. He did it with both tristan and waiters. I like that we take advanced metrics heavily into consideration but when we are drafting as high as we are we can't have chris focusing so heavily on one player for our draft slot.

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[RTrees]

The thing that is worrisome about chris grant is he falls in love with players and then gets tunnel vision on draft night. He did it with both tristan and waiters. I like that we take advanced metrics heavily into consideration but when we are drafting as high as we are we can't have chris focusing so heavily on one player for our draft slot.

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Are you indeed talking out of your ass TyGuy?

Just curious. Is this notion you're posting about based on reports that Grant wanted these guys all along? Was there no back and forth for him/them on draft night? I'd love to know more.

And if that's the case, is decisiveness something to be feared from a GM? "Tunnel vision" and decisiveness may not be the same thing. If he picked without hesitation, the reasons are important. If you think it's "tunnel vision" maybe you can explain why you think that?

[TyGuy]

There were reports that chris grant fell in love with tristan after working him out. Next thing you know, that is the guy being picked. Coming into this draft you had our coach saying we were taking a wing after hearing rumors of dion waiters.

There are ways of disagreeing without being an asshole.

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[PATRICK EWING]

Advanced METRICS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Pioneer10]

The thing is Jonas scored well on the advanced metrics as well. Seemed like a no-brainer on draft night to go with Kyrie and Jonas to me.

[Seiklis]

I'm still convinced it was Lithuania that was the problem.

It was reported for 2 months prior to the draft that the buyout was almost done yet it wasn't completed until 2 days after the draft. There was a hold up and it had to be either someone wanting Jonas somewhere or not wanting him somewhere. I know Leon Rose got alot of the flak right after the draft, that he had some vendetta against the Cavs for damaging Lebron's rep. But I don't think Rose had much to do with this.

Think back to the 2007 season. Cavs had just lost to the Spurs in the finals and had finally made it to the big time. But the long season had worn down more than a few of the players, Z being one of them and with his feet that's always a worry. So when Z asked for permission to join the Lithuanian Olympic squad that summer, he was denied, the Cavs citing his feet and the fact the extra practice and games would be far too hard on Z's feet. So in '08, the Lithuanian Olympic team didn't have their best center because we wouldn't let him play. Now...why would it ever be in Lithuanian basketball's interest for the next possibly great center out of Lithuania to end up on the Cavs, the team that already prevented one center from playing.

So with Lithuanian basketball having full control over Jonas's contract and the Cavs in a prime spot to get him, I believe Lithuania simply said no. They had no interest in agreeing to any buyout that got Jonas here and there was pretty much no one outside Lietuvos rytas and the rest of Lithuanian basketball who could do anything about it. They simply did not trust Gilbert and the Cavs after they held Z back. The Cavs could of called their bluff of course, but Jonas might end up stuck over there for 2 to 3 years instead of one if they did.

I wish they would of called the bluff cause I had Jonas rated 2nd on my board when they took Tristan, but I can understand why they didn't. They just didn't want to take a chance on Rubio happening to them

[Joe Henderson]

I'm still convinced it was Lithuania that was the problem.

It was reported for 2 months prior to the draft that the buyout was almost done yet it wasn't completed until 2 days after the draft. There was a hold up and it had to be either someone wanting Jonas somewhere or not wanting him somewhere. I know Leon Rose got alot of the flak right after the draft, that he had some vendetta against the Cavs for damaging Lebron's rep. But I don't think Rose had much to do with this.

Think back to the 2007 season. Cavs had just lost to the Spurs in the finals and had finally made it to the big time. But the long season had worn down more than a few of the players, Z being one of them and with his feet that's always a worry. So when Z asked for permission to join the Lithuanian Olympic squad that summer, he was denied, the Cavs citing his feet and the fact the extra practice and games would be far too hard on Z's feet. So in '08, the Lithuanian Olympic team didn't have their best center because we wouldn't let him play. Now...why would it ever be in Lithuanian basketball's interest for the next possibly great center out of Lithuania to end up on the Cavs, the team that already prevented one center from playing.

So with Lithuanian having full control over Jonas's contract and the Cavs in a prime spot to get him, I believe Lithuania simply said no. They had no interest in agreeing to any buyout that got Jonas here and there was pretty much no one outside Lietuvos rytas and the rest of Lithuanian basketball who could do anything about it. They simply did not trust Gilbert and the Cavs after they held Z back. The Cavs could of called their bluff of course, but Jonas might end up stuck over there for 2 to 3 years instead of one if they did.

I wish they would of called the bluff cause I had Jonas rated 2nd on my board when they took Tristan, but I can understand why they didn't. They just didn't want to take a chance on Rubio happening to them

Lithuania had control of his contract? Like the government? Or the national basketball association? I think you are quite wrong. His team, Lietuvos Rytas had control of his contract. And ultimately, Jonas did... contracts expire, which makes players free to do whatever they want.

But i think you are onto something here. I have a very hard time believing that a 1-year wait would have made the Cavs hesitate... That actually would have been seen as a positive as they angled for a better draft position in 2012. Not like they were trying to win anything last year... So yeah, the only obvious explanation, especially given the previous indications of them liking Jonas a lot, is that they were told in no uncertain terms that Jonas may never suit up for them -- for whatever reason. Maybe it was Z's national team situation, maybe it was something else, but they didn't want to get caught up in the impossible situation of being handed a trade request by a lottery pick who's never played a minute in the league... imagine the returns on that deal!

[adam81king]

I'm not sure where you guys get all these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Chris Grant to just PREFER Tristan Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas? Even if it ends up being a bad choice (which MOST GMs and player personnel people do), I think Grant made a choice that he thought was best for the Cavaliers. This is the same guy that drafted a player (Dion Waiters) without seeing him in a workout for a second, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched for him to just want Tristan more than Jonas...even if most may disagree.

To think that anyone other than Jonas and/or Leon Rose would "conspire" to put Jonas anywhere is ridiculous. Even though I don't think anyone other than Rose MIGHT have played a role in any ploy to place JV, it's still ridiculous to think his TEAM, let alone his COUNTRY would have anything to do with it. The country of Lithuania has no say in where Jonas plays basketball, so that theory is just insane. That would be like the Cavaliers not letting Samardo Samuels play in Greece because we wanted him to play for Team USA instead (sounds crazy, huh?). And why would Lietuvos Rytas slow down their buyout with JV just so he doesn't play in Cleveland? There is a limit to the amount any team can give for a player buyout SPECIFICALLY for this reason. Rytas wasn't/didn't get any more from Toronto than they would've from Cleveland. As for the connection to Z, last I checked, Z felt good enough about his time in Cleveland to write the fans a letter when he left, come back to Cleveland for work after he retired and has lived there pretty much every day since he's been in the NBA. I'd say there isn't much bad blood between Z and the Cavaliers organization--especially not 4yr old animosity. Since Z knows his job is about building the best team possible, I don't think he'd sabotage the team. If anything, he'd talk to Jonas about how great the organization, and city, are. Everything I've read said that Jonas idolized both Z and Arvydas Sabonis, so to play in the same place that one of his idols (and countrymen) played, and, in theory, taking the torch from him, would seem to be a pretty special thing for him, wouldn't it?

You guys certainly do have some imaginations, though. Some of you should look into creative writing.

[Jack Brickman]

I'm not sure where you guys get all these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Chris Grant to just PREFER Tristan Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas? Even if it ends up being a bad choice (which MOST GMs and player personnel people do), I think Grant made a choice that he thought was best for the Cavaliers. This is the same guy that drafted a player (Dion Waiters) without seeing him in a workout for a second, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched for him to just want Tristan more than Jonas...even if most may disagree.

Chad Ford reported that Cleveland really liked Valanciunas, but his agent wanted him playing in Toronto. As a result, he was very shifty with the Cavs about when exactly Valanciunas would come over to play in the NBA. The Cavs were unwilling to wait several years for a player that they weren't sure wanted to play here (understandable given how the LeBron thing played out) and went to their next choice.

I'm not sure if it's true, but Ford said exactly that, so take from it what you will.

[adam81king]

Chad Ford reported that Cleveland really liked Valanciunas, but his agent wanted him playing in Toronto. As a result, he was very shifty with the Cavs about when exactly Valanciunas would come over to play in the NBA. The Cavs were unwilling to wait several years for a player that they weren't sure wanted to play here (understandable given how the LeBron thing played out) and went to their next choice.

I'm not sure if it's true, but Ford said exactly that, so take from it what you will.

I heard that, too. And, as I wrote in that original post (check the unedited post just a few minutes ago), Leon Rose would be the only one I MIGHT blame for any shadiness in that deal. Blaming Lithuania, or his Lithuanian team is just ridiculous, though.

[ChicagoCavFan]

Blaming Lithuania, or his Lithuanian team is just ridiculous, though.

I disagree. Being Lithuanian, I tracked the Z / Lithuanian National Team drama closely. Maybe playing for his country is more important to Jonas than the NBA...after all, its just a job.

Read this article:

http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/2011...-matulevicius/

Why Ilgauskas will never surpass Sabonis, by Matulevičius

The news that Žydrūnas Ilgauskas (Big Z) has finished his career as a professional basketball player in the NBA again incited the dispute — who is the brightest star of Lithuanian basketball— Arvydas Sabonis or Big Z? This time, after counting their rebounds, scored points and income, basketball experts did not have any other choice but to admit what was already known: A. Sabonis is second.

However, by doing so, somehow the rebounds, scored points and medals won while playing for the Lithuanian national basketball team were forgotten. This act was not only dishonest, but also cunningly did not consider the part which, when comparing these two world-class sportsmen, might also be the most important, Vytautas Matulevičius wrote in alfa.lt on 20 October.

In considering their outlook to the national team and their duty to Lithuania, A. Sabonis and Ž. Ilgauskas are clear polar opposites.

During the best years of his career, A. Sabonis never questioned whether he should play for Lithuania or not. If, however, he had to ask, then he managed to forget all the injuries and fatigue, and finally put on his famous number 11 jersey, each time stoically becoming the leader of the team. It is not hard to guess that each year the decision to change the holiday into another hell on the basketball court, which would not add any money or fame (because everything was already achieved), became harder and harder to make. But A. Sabonis was playing for the national team until a substitution for him was found and when, due to his age and injuries, he started to think about the end of his career in the NBA.

On the other hand, Ž. Ilgauskas, although he had strong arguments (operation on his leg), always chose a different path — he did not risk his well-paid NBA player status and did not exhaust himself with an extra workload on the national team. Each time the World Championships and the Olympic Games were on the horizon, Lithuania waited breathlessly for his response. Nonetheless, the response, even when the leaders of the country were calling, was always the same: “no.” The injuries, the fatigue after the long NBA season, no one is willing to pay for the insurance, the NBA team will not let me go, etc. were the common excuses. Yet all of this did not prevent him from playing very successfully for more than a decade in the most well-known basketball league in the world.

Every citizen has the right to refuse to volunteer. You can refuse even when you know that you are the only one who can do what is awaited by the entire nation. Still, just as Ž. Ilgauskas had the right to choose, every Lithuanian today has the right to tell him openly that he shunned Lithuania. This is an undeniable fact, and its real meaning will become apparent only as time passes, and money will be of no comfort.

Albeit this good sportsman most probably did not understand that a man to whom God has given a gift is expected to give more back as well. Also, there is a different side of the coin, the one about which the legendary coach Vladas Garastas spoke many times: Ž. Ilgauskas was taught by Lithuania’s basketball school, and he developed his talents largely due to its help; thus, he is in debt to Lithuania. Now this debt is left unpaid.

If you know Ž. Ilgauskas’s point of view, you must be surprised by the loyal attention of Lithuanian journalists, who are following his every footstep. Each time he declined an offer to play in the national team and came back for holiday, he still was greeted as though he had brought back a medal for his homeland. When there is such a lack of self-respect and people are afraid to tell the truth, the day is not far away when in the eyes of the youth, the difference between which path you are choosing will totally disappear.

The aforementioned second place of A. Sabonis is an expression of such an outlook.

Nevertheless, despite the recurring attempts to dethrone him, A. Sabonis is and will be unsurpassed. He will be the best not only for the results he has achieved but also for his attitude towards the motherland. One can only wonder how he used his endurance and unique irony to cope with the fame. No arrogance, inappropriate actions or scandals which are so typical of celebrity life.

We have even seen him smiling in the hospital. Has anyone else seen someone joking like that after a heart attack? Think about all the people, sitting in front of their screens, whom he has inspired that evening not to give up due to the diseases, disasters, pessimism, and misfortune which are haunting each of us?

We have been lucky that we have such a fellow countryman. The number 1 Lithuanian, 220 centimetres. Just by looking at him, Lithuania stops looking small.

[Jon]

Wow, that was brutal. Maybe it's a "first world viewpoint" thing ... but seems to me if you want Z to play so much for your team then you pony up the insurance premium and don't ask him to put his career on the line or Dan Gilbert to pickup the bill.